Looking for 340th BG 487th BS B-25C and B-25J "Tuff Stuff" photos from MTO

[487thBS]

MTO aircraft photo request. I am looking for any information or photos of two separate 340th BG 487th BS B-25 Mitchell aircraft with the same name:

B-25C 42-53483 "Tuff Stuff" tail code 7M (shot down in MTO on 13FEB44)
B-25J 43-4066 "Tuff Stuff" tail code 7M (replaced earlier 7M)

I am familiar with the 57th BW website as well as some of the other sites that feature 487th aircraft and crew information. Between these resources and others, I believe I have seen every picture available for each aircraft, but one never knows. I was hoping that there were different details or photos that I have not been able to find thus far.

Additionally, are there any good sources of information regarding detailing, markings, and colors of these 487th BS aircraft while in the MTO?

-Mike

 

[fubar57]

CATCH 22

 

[Greg Boeser]

How do you do that?

 

[fubar57]

@ symbol and to the right, no space, type in name Greg Boeser You'll start getting hits after a few letters, like below

 

[Greg Boeser]

Thanks. That will come in handy when I want to poke the bear.

 

[fubar57]

https://gfycat.com/agreeablediligentjohndory

 

[MIflyer]

I have the 57th Bomb Wing Assn 50th Anniversary book "The B-25 in the Mediterranean", which included the 340th BG. But I don't see anything in it.

 

[CATCH 22]

I am familiar with the 57th BW website as well as some of the other sites that feature 487th aircraft and crew information. Between these resources and others, I believe I have seen every picture available for each aircraft.....
-Mike

Hi Mike, as per your information above you already have everything discussed in this forum (or even more). I'm pretty sure the old "Tuff Stuff" with the additional fixed nose armament is shown somewhere in the big thread called "B-25 weapons thread".
The new "Tuff Stuff" is just another B-25J. She's a B-25J-1 and factory camouflaged - OD over NG. Note the relatively wide "wave" of the demarcation line.

We've discussed a similar a/c in one of the modelling threads, anything from camo colours to the removed blister guns and the natural metal shining below should be there.

The old "Tuff Stuff" is much more interesting (at least for me), because of 2 things:
1. This a/c was one of the 16 B-25 modified in April 1943 by the 26th Air Depot in Egypt with 6-guns strafer-nose. Norm Avery writes about these planes in his book, which you have checked already. This particular plane is a C-5 and had 1 fixed and 1 flexible gun from the factory. It is visible that the fixed gun was in the standard higher position (well known from all sources and descriptions) and not in the not so common lower position, we've been discussing here in several threads. It is obvious that the a/c is in original "sand"-camouflage. As known from the many books this was a temporary modification only and the 16 a/c were de-modified later. And indeed MACR #3358 for "Tuff Stuff" describes one flexible and one fixed nose gun only.

2. "Tuff Stuff' has s/n 42-53483 but IS NOT listed as one of the planes modified in the Sidi Ahmed Air Base at Bizerte!
When I first started checking all these MTO-mods and sub-mods and mods of the mods, I was thinking she was just one of the unmodified early "Mitchells" as we see them in all MTO groups. The a/c was later camouflaged with OD over the standard "sand" in a manner typical for the 340-th BG. - the exact pattern of the camo has been discussed in this forum. As per Dana Bell the B-25 camo was applied pretty much based on the official proposal and all a/c had similar appearance.

O.K., back to what we don't see in the pictures. Even if I couldn't find the serial of "Tuff Stuff" among the Sidi Ahmed mods, the MACR gives us an exact description of 2 waist guns (left and right), one tail gun and no bottom turret, thus giving a description of a modified a/c. This is the "mystery" I personally haven't solved yet: is this a Warner Robins'-modification, moved from the 321st BG to the 340th (less probable) or is it a late Sid Ahmed-modification, probably modified to the standard of the 340th B-25, after the de-modification as described above. In this case "Tuff Stuff" should have the same appearance as many of the modified "Mitchells" in the group you've seen already.
Cheers!

 

[487thBS]

Yves,

Thank you for the thorough reply and additional information. While I have been attempting to gather data on these aircraft for many years, I know that there is much that I am still unaware of. Perhaps understandably, the B-25C is the one that has the least information available, but even the later B-25J changed quite a bit over its service life.

As an example, I was absolutely shocked to find that a model company was releasing sheets featuring markings for 487th aircraft, with a sheet featuring B-25J Tuff Stuff due in March of this year! When the artwork went up, I was confused because of an overall camouflage scheme that I have never seen before with black undersides and disruptive green upper surfaces (see below).

Nailing down details for these aircraft has been difficult due to all of the changes, but I was hoping it would have been more consistent with the rest of the BG. This, along with the color of blue used for the engine cowls/spinners, for example, has been perplexing. There is also early vs late service, referencing the apparent factory camouflage seen below:

Regardless, I am always hopeful that a new reference shot (or shots) will eventually be uncovered to answer these questions in as definitive a way as possible.

-Mike

 

[CATCH 22]

....
As an example, I was absolutely shocked to find that a model company was releasing sheets featuring markings for 487th aircraft, with a sheet featuring B-25J Tuff Stuff due in March of this year! When the artwork went up, I was confused because of an overall camouflage scheme that I have never seen before with black undersides and disruptive green upper surfaces (see below).

View attachment 706936

Nailing down details for these aircraft has been difficult due to all of the changes, but I was hoping it would have been more consistent with the rest of the BG. This, along with the color of blue used for the engine cowls/spinners, for example, has been perplexing. There is also early vs late service, referencing the apparent factory camouflage seen below:

Hi Mike!
Sometimes there are lines/borders we create alone to separate possible from....let say improbable. The creators of the profiles clearly misidentified a shadow for a black under surface, which in this case was never used in the MTO AFAIK. One can compare the photo in flight you posted and the colour profile (obviously based on the former) and see how the darker under surface does not go from nose to tail. The misinterpreted NM cowling is another clearly visible element: in fact only one panel in front of the carburetor intake is in NM (probably taken from another not camouflaged plane), but the intake and the top surface of the nacelle is camouflaged. The lighter appearing colour in this area is because of the hot exhaust gases coming out of the single S-stacks.

There were white, blue, red and yellow rings to distinguish different squadrons. AFAIR blue was the colour for the second squadron in the group so it matches the position of the 487th BS. Often the propeller domes were painted in the same colour. At the end of the war the lower half of the ring was painted only. The blue used in this cases was a darker blue tone, not as light as shown. I have a photo of 7J in NM with lighter appearing ring and dome (I'm sure you've seen the photo) - no idea what the colour is.

The latter markings have been added or deleted in different periods so this may vary, but on the photo in flight of 7M there is no coloured ring IMHO and the propeller dome is in NM - see zoomed in detail above.
The lighter and darker appearing areas of the top camo can be explained easily (at least this is what I know about) with differently faded out panels, repairs and/or repaintings. This photo shows it well:

8B has an original factory camouflage and 8P - a field applied one
The new paint always appears darker than the original one. There is also a difference between the older (darker, more brownish) Dark OD Green 41 and the newer lighter OD (to become ANA 613) used after mid 1943. Repairs made with the older, darker tone differed from the original, lighter tone of the factory camouflaged a/c. I'm sure you've seen even older B-25 in the MTO, originally camouflaged in sand but with repairs and patches in OD (we're discussing one of them here).
I checked an original photo of 7Z in flight as well and it's basically the same play of light and shadows. The black lower colour in the profile you've shown always ends abruptly at some panel line - compare with the photo below that this was not the case.

The nose probably shows some repair with a darker (OD) tone which goes over the NG:

There is some overpainting of the left nacelle which might have been in NM originally (a repair part), and the newly applied colours do not match the standard scheme, I agree. But again there are no black under surfaces IMHO. I've seen the exact same appearance on a plane from the 489th BS. It is possible that the original camo was changed for some reason, unknown to me.

The above photo clearly illustrates all those specific details mentioned above.
And a last one (from the book "B-25 Mitchell units in the MTO") - different shades of OD in any possible variation can be seen very well. The dark appearing nacelle is not black, but fresh dark OD, white lower half of the ring and propeller dome etc. The camouflage is field not factory applied though.

You might try and contact the manufacturers of the decals, asking them what sources did they use. I've seen many misinterpretations of old photos to "get a life" in models, decals, paintings. This doesn't make them real though.
I'm not a modeller per se, just trying this an that, but there are some brilliant modellers in this forum and I believe they will agree that representing a realistic faded camouflage colour is not an easy task. One needs several variations of the basic colour, darker and lighter, to create a nice looking replica (model). Those variations will be subtle and with soft borders, rather than sharp and heavy as in the profiles for the decals.
If you start building a model of this particular a/c, you might decide to show it here. I'm sure many of the forum-members will have some good ideas or share their knowledge.
The truth is out there!
Cheers!

 

[LMMarr]

CATCH 22 - that's my grandfather in the picture in front of Tuff Stuff - Milton Gammage. I was just going to post it and was shocked that it was already here!

 

[CATCH 22]

CATCH 22 - that's my grandfather in the picture in front of Tuff Stuff - Milton Gammage. I was just going to post it and was shocked that it was already here!

Hi LMMarr and welcome to our forum! Don't be shocked - photos of airplanes from WWII and their respective crews are all over the internet, published in books etc. In this forum we usually try to make them accessible for everybody who's interested. From time to time we are lucky to be visited by relatives of the airmen, who might share some further information or ask questions.
The above photo comes from an official wartime publication called 487th Squadron Album with all (or some of) the crews. Here's the full page with Tuff Stuff:

As you see there is another crew in front of the same plane, this time the left side of the nose. Do you know if this was your granddad's regular B-25 or not?
Your grandfather Milton Gammage is obviously an officer - was he the pilot, a co-pilot or a bombardier/navigator?
Tuff Stuff was hit by AA and exploded on Febr. 13 1944 with a different crew. Here's the description from the MACR by the pilot of the plane:

This means your granddad's service in the MTO was before Febr. 1944, am I correct? Was he from the beginning to the end with the 487th bomb. squadron, 340th bomb. group or did he move to a different unit?
Best Regards!
Yves