Luftwaffe in 1936-41 improvements?

[The Basket]

Bribery scandal when the West sell to some dodgy country a boat load of weapons.

Shocked Pikachu face.

Big wads of cash in brown paper bags make the world go around.

I would never take a bribe. But big bag of cash which somehow disappeared well that's just unlucky.

 

[NVSMITH]

Take the war seriously.

In other words, don't wait until 1944 to peak aircraft production. Ramp production up immediately.

"...War is not merely a political act, but also a real political instrument, a continuation of political commerce, a carrying out of the same by other means." (Source: Carl von Clausewitz, On War, Chapter 1: What is War?) None of the German armed forces could pursue ANY activities that contradicted the whims, fantasies and fallacies of the political leadership. Too few submarines while trying to build aircraft carriers? Weapons contracts issued based on political connections vice demonstrated capabilities?

 

[33k in the air]

Arguably, there was nothing the Luftwaffe could have done because Germany's critical shortcoming was oil. Without ample supplies of that, everything else doesn't really matter.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

You're not wasting anyone's time here. These are folks who are quite knowledgeable, and even passionate, about aircraft. Discussing airplanes is what is done here. You state an opinion and then be prepared to back it up. These guys are enjoying telling you why "it won't work". Some of the responses you got are because you're hanging on to an untenable position. They might be a little exasperated right now because of a couple of threads in which people, who should know better, stick to a clearly ridiculous position. Just read their responses. It's aviation gold. Read why, and understand why it "it can't be done" can't be done. I truly got to understand center of gravity issues because a member (was it Wes?) used an example of a paper airplane. No math, no theory.
I think possibly we may have lost our sense of wonder along the way. Being a responsible adult is a buzzkill. It WOULD be cool to have bunch of B-70's. It's a freaking AWESOME airplane. A tour de force for a non-existent mission. Oh, and welcome to the forum. You are the first member I welcomed to our group. I felt I just wasn't here long enough.

Such a well-written reply gets bacon.

 

[GrauGeist]

(BF) 109 E - BoB - had no provision for drop tanks. The plane was relettered in 1942(?) ish as the Me 109 in keeping the the LW new practice of Identifying planes by the mfg.

Any aircraft manufactured by BFW by July 1938 and prior, carried the RLM's assigned prefix of "Bf":
Bf108
Bf109
Bf110
Bf161
Bf162
Bf163
Bf165

Any aircraft manufactured in August 1938 or later, carried the RLM designated prefix of "Me".
Me163
Me208
Me209
Me209-II
Me210
Me261
Me262
Me264
Me309
Me310
Me321
Me323
Me328
Me410
Me609

 

[The Basket]

Aircraft carriers and battleships were built because the Kreigmarine wanted battleships.

Can't blame Hitler on that one.

Doenitz was a u boot man and his rise was based on thier success.

A lot of country built battleships in peace and built smaller craft in war. So no surprise to me to focus on the high ticket items when the going was good.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Arguably, there was nothing the Luftwaffe could have done because Germany's critical shortcoming was oil. Without ample supplies of that, everything else doesn't really matter.

It's a fair point. With over 32k Bf 109, 20k Fw 190, 9k Ju 88, etc. the Luftwaffe wasn't short of aircraft.

 

[GrauGeist]

It's a fair point. With over 32k Bf 109, 20k Fw 190, 9k Ju 88, etc. the Luftwaffe wasn't short of aircraft.

While those numbers seem impressive, they're actually not.
Germany started WWII (1939) with only 449 Bf109s.
By the end of 1940, they had produced less than 1,700 Bf109s (and lost a considerable number of those to the Battle of France and Battle of Britain).

As the war drug on nd their fortunes changed, a considerable amount of their aircraft manufactured were destroyed before even making it to the front: being destroyed at the facility's depot, during the ferry flight or while being transported by rail to the front.

Add to that, combat losses that exceeded their ability to recover, such as Operation Bodenplatt, which cost the Luftwaffe 280 aircraft and 214 pilots and eliminated their ability to mount an offensive operation for the rest of the war.

 

[Admiral Beez]

While those numbers seem impressive, they're actually not.

I'm not suggesting that more aircraft would have made a difference. Once the Soviets failed to collapse by end of 1941 and began their offensive in 1942 no number of Luftwaffe aircraft would make any difference.

 

[GrauGeist]

I'm not suggesting that more aircraft would have made a difference. Once the Soviets failed to collapse by end of 1941 and began their offensive in 1942 no number of Luftwaffe aircraft would make any difference.

I'll have to disagree - had Germany been able to provide the Luftwaffe with sufficient numbers of planes (and pilots) from the start then it would have been much harder to wrest air superiority from them.
This applies to both the Western and Eastern fronts.
However, as it turned out, having a cottage industry mindset for nearly four years in regards to aircraft production as well as flawed tactical planning doomed them and there was no coming back from that, no matter how many aircraft they manufactured in 1944.

Like mentioned earlier: you don't start a World War with less than a thousand fighters.

 

[The Basket]

I'm the early part of the war then you could have low numbers. No big deal.

It was bringing USSR and USA into war which made huge numbers of fighters important.

Germany didn't start a world war by invading Poland.

 

[GrauGeist]

I'm the early part of the war then you could have low numbers. No big deal.

But it was a big deal.

Germany's manufacturing rate could not match the losses between summer of '39 and the end of 1940.

If you start a war, you must factor in attrition. To assume that your 900+ fighters will be sufficient to subdue several well armed nations in all-out war is dillusional at best...

 

[The Basket]

The Germans believed there would be short sharp wars so the need for large numbers of aircraft would be unnecessary.

Also if you made thousands of aircraft then you are going to be stuck with a truck load of Doras and Claras and He 51.

To build more fighters needs more factories more jigs and tooling and trained personnel and pilots and airfields and raw materials and fuel.

And time.

I think Hitler and the Nazis being delusional has been well proved by this point.

 

[Akuma]

I think Hitler and the Nazis being delusional has been well proved by this point.

The Dunning-Kruger effect is on full display when it comes to the Nazi government.
Also (little known fact) AH hated Industrialists and the concept of Free Enterprise. He considered 'Capitalism', as championed in England and America, to be a Jewish construct.

 

[GrauGeist]

The Dunning-Kruger effect is on full display when it comes to the Nazi government.
Also (little known fact) AH hated Industrialists and the concept of Free Enterprise. He considered 'Capitalism', as championed in England and America, to be a Jewish construct.

That from the book that came out recently and sounds like a stunning revelation, but Hitler's views in capitalism were more aligned with fascist views where it was good for the state.

Otherwise, the party would have seized all private business, seized foreign interests and would have never awarded Henry Ford the Grand Cross with the German Eagle.

 

[Akuma]

That from the book that came out recently and sounds like a stunning revelation, but Hitler's views in capitalism were more aligned with fascist views where it was good for the state.

Otherwise, the party would have seized all private business, seized foreign interests and would have never awarded Henry Ford the Grand Cross with the German Eagle.

By controlling production, prices, wages, distribution, hiring and firing practices, etc. (all for the good of the state) the Party, following Fascist theory and ideology, had effectively seized all businesses including those manufacturing foreign goods under license. Awarding Medals to admired and admiring foreigners was part of their public relations efforts.

 

[GrauGeist]

The National Socialists didn't pass out high state medals like party favors, unlike the Soviet Union. Especially to non-Germans.

The party did not seize any private ventures unless they were owned by Jews.

Foreign companies like Coca-Cola, GM, Ford and others were not seized, they operated on a local level as ties between the German subsidiaries and the American headquarters were severed during the war.

 

[The Basket]

Treaty of Versailles did a number here.

By limiting Aviation and manufacturing then the downside here is limited expansion. The general expertise is lower therefore production is lower.

Britain and USA had greater aircraft factories and engine manufacturing and so when push came to shove they were able to expand because the experience and the factories were there to do that.

Hitler wanted war from day dot so he needed the army to fight his wars and the industrialist to build his war machine. He was shrewd enough to know this.

 

[MikeMeech]

It's a fair point. With over 32k Bf 109, 20k Fw 190, 9k Ju 88, etc. the Luftwaffe wasn't short of aircraft.

Hi

The book 'German Aircraft Industry and Production 1933-1945' by Vajda & Dancey has some use when looking at this subject, it is also full of tables and charts on production. Some examples follow, which may help in any discussion:

Usual caveats apply on production as figures for aircraft 'produced' can include aircraft 'equivalents' (ie spare parts) in some cases.

Mike

 

[MikeMeech]

Hi

Also Vajda & Dancey have a comparison table on page 133:

There is much more information in this book as well which appear to be based on the German source material which survived.
R J Overy in 'The Air War 1939-1945' also includes comparison tables:

Plus general industrial comparison:

Also air strength:

:

I hope that is useful.

Mike