Nazi Germany, logistics, Allies advance (and the lack of it) etc

[tomo pauk]

I'd wager that this is a more appropriate place to discuss ww2 generalities.

Look at their spending on the military to GDP from 1933-37. 1938-39 yes they were preparing for war, prior they were spending less than any likely foe and just rebuilding their military.

Care to show some math to support this, ie. how many aircraft/tanks/artillery were Germans buying vs. how much Poland or France were buying in the second half of 1930s? As well as what was planned to be bought, say until 1941?

I was talking about Russia, but in 1940 the Germans went further faster than the Wallies in 1944 as they didn't go out of their way to wreck infrastructure for months.

It can be only expected that Germans will go faster in 1940 than the Allies in 1944, indeed because the Allies had no working infrastructure to support their drive, unlike what Germans had in 1940.

That's just a flat out wrong. The hardest fighting and bloodiest part of the French campaign for the Germans was in June:

After Dunkirk: The French Army's Performance against 'Case Red', 25 May to 25 June 1940 on JSTOR

Martin S. Alexander, After Dunkirk: The French Army's Performance against 'Case Red', 25 May to 25 June 1940, War in History, Vol. 14, No. 2 (April 2007), pp. 219-264

www.jstor.org

Thank you for the link.

First of all they weren't trying to conquer the world, that was a British fabrication:

Amazon.com

Second I don't disagree that serious mistakes were made by Germany though they lacked options to do much else given how anti-negotiation the Allies were, but the US had the war on easy mode and still managed to fuck up. In fact had Hitler not been so obsessed with Antwerp in 1944 and adopted Rundstedt's plan the 90 division gamble could have seen the US army effectively collapse in NW Europe via the Ardennes offensive. Also it wasn't logistics that stopped the Germans in 1941 or 1942, it was Hitler's poor choices to try and clear the flanks before going for Moscow and the obsession with trying to bag prisoners instead sticking to plan Blau. Otherwise the USSR was on the verge of implosion by late 1942 economically due to the loss of territory, population, farmland, resources, etc.

USSR didn't get the memo that stipulated that they were on the verge of implosion by late 1942. Execution of Plan Blau was taking place in 1942, not in 1941. I'll disagree with the notion that German logistics were just fine in 1941-42 in a war against the USSR, anyway you cut it.
Allies being anti-negotiating was a feature, not a bug.
Perhaps Nazi Germany was not hell bent on conquering the world, they would've been probably just satisfied with the division of Eurasia along the 70th meridian east (minus India) with Japan. One grandeous plan, none the less.

The 90 division gamble assumes a few unlikely things:
- Germany can handwave 90 combat-worthy divisions
- Germany has no logistical problems to support 90 divisions push, while Allies have logistical problems
- Allies don't have air superiority

 

[wiking85]

I'd wager that this is a more appropriate place to discuss ww2 generalities.

Care to show some math to support this, ie. how many aircraft/tanks/artillery were Germans buying vs. how much Poland or France were buying in the second half of 1930s? As well as what was planned to be bought, say until 1941?

That's a hard set of information to get answers to without digging in the archives. This guy (retired Bundeswehr Major-General) did some of that and has some numbers if you can stand subtitled German. I think his book was translated into English and has some of these answers:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRpsfJmtPNg&t=1s

Ultimately he points out that the professed enemies of Germany surrounding her badly outnumbered Germany until France was defeated in 1940. So keep in mind that German military planning was based around have to defend herself against invasion on all sides. Don't forget the insanely massive Soviet military build-up as well, which weighed very heavily on German military planners, especially given their connections and sales of weapons to Czechoslovakia.

It can be only expected that Germans will go faster in 1940 than the Allies in 1944, indeed because the Allies had no working infrastructure to support their drive, unlike what Germans had in 1940.

The Germans also had smashed up infrastructure via the air AND enemies that outnumbered them. The Allies outnumbered the Germans. The issue was poor Allied logistics planning in NWE:

#Reviewing War of Supply: World War II Allied Logistics in the Mediterranean

In the historiography of the Second World War, scholars marvel at the wonders of Normandy and D-Day, followed by the famed Red Ball Express on the drive to Paris. Dworak makes the compelling case that the real support and logistics operation came from wartime experience further south. As a reader, i

thestrategybridge.org

Their best logisticians were in the Mediterranean, which was masterfully run after the initial problems were ironed out. Granted they also had much more experience with logistics than the relative beginners handling the NWE campaign.

USSR didn't get the memo that stipulated that they were on the verge of implosion by late 1942. Execution of Plan Blau was taking place in 1942, not in 1941. I'll disagree with the notion that German logistics were just fine in 1941-42 in a war against the USSR, anyway you cut it.
Allies being anti-negotiating was a feature, not a bug.
Perhaps Nazi Germany was not hell bent on conquering the world, they would've been probably just satisfied with the division of Eurasia along the 70th meridian east (minus India) with Japan. One grandeous plan, none the less.

The 90 division gamble assumes a few unlikely things:
- Germany can handwave 90 combat-worthy divisions

You realize there was a Pacific theater too, right? And Mediterranean?

From the US army's own publication on the 90 division gamble:

90-Division Gamble

But there is a postscript to this story that deserves careful reflection. When the crisis caused by the Ardennes breakthrough of December 1944 denuded the United States of all the remaining divisions and left the strategic reserve a memory, the possibility of having raised too few divisions rose again to cause War Department planners from Stimson on down some anxious moments. [42] Because of the unexpected developments in Europe, not one division was sent to the Pacific after August 1944. By V-J Day all eighty-nine active divisions were deployed overseas and all but two had seen combat. [43] Fortunately the crisis of late 1944 was the last unpleasant surprise. If another had come the divisional cupboard would have been bare.

Meaning if even 10 divisions were destroyed the US had zero reserves left by late 1944 and was, like the British but not quite to the same extent, cannibalizing manpower to make good the unforeseen infantry losses.

- Germany has no logistical problems to support 90 divisions push, while Allies have logistical problems
- Allies don't have air superiority

Not sure what you're even trying to get at here.

 

[tomo pauk]

This guy did some of that and has some numbers if you can stand subtitled German. I think his book was translated into English and has some of these answers:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRpsfJmtPNg&t=1s

Ultimately he points out that the professed enemies of Germany surrounding her badly outnumbered Germany until France was defeated in 1940. So keep in mind that German military planning was based around have to defend herself against invasion on all sides. Don't forget the insanely massive Soviet military build-up as well, which weighed very heavily on German military planners, especially given their connections and sales of weapons to Czechoslovakia.

I thought of you as a person that is very interested in German hardware, and more or less politically ambivalent. (Un)Fortunately, the text above and video you have linked opened my eyes.
Bye.

 

[Shortround6]

Don't forget the insanely massive Soviet military build-up as well, which weighed very heavily on German military planners, especially given their connections and sales of weapons to Czechoslovakia.

I got lost on the Soviet weapons sales to Czechoslovakia???
Or is German sales of German weapons to Czechoslovakia???

Most accounts say that the German equipped 4-10 Divisions with Czech made weapons in 1938-40.
From handguns to 15cm Howitzers.

Czechoslovakia, in a large part Skoda, was doing a fair trade in international weapons sales.

 

[wiking85]

I thought of you as a person that is very interested in German hardware, and more or less politically ambivalent. (Un)Fortunately, the text above and video you have linked opened my eyes.
Bye.

Pathetic. Just because you cannot engage with the specific answer to your question without assuming I politically agree with the presenter is just really sad.

 

[wiking85]

I got lost on the Soviet weapons sales to Czechoslovakia???
Or is German sales of German weapons to Czechoslovakia???

Most accounts say that the German equipped 4-10 Divisions with Czech made weapons in 1938-40.
From handguns to 15cm Howitzers.

Czechoslovakia, in a large part Skoda, was doing a fair trade in international weapons sales.

Yes, the Soviets were selling aircraft to the Czechs in 1938-39. Once the Germans took over Czechia they equipped units with captured Czechoslovak weapons. You're correct that the Skoda works were huge weapons factories, but for ground forces. The Czechs had a weak aero industry and were seeking Soviet help since the Allies had abandoned them in 1938.

 

[GrauGeist]

The Czechs had a weak aero industry and were seeking Soviet help since the Allies had abandoned them in 1938.

The only Soviet aircraft that the Czechslovak Airforce possessed, were 60 SB bombers (Aero and Avia built several more under license).

Czechoslovakia had seven aircraft manufacturers and were quite capable of (and did) aircraft production prior to annexation by Germany, which occurred in 1938 - which may be why the Allies "abandoned" them in 1938...

 

[Shortround6]

Yes, the Soviets were selling aircraft to the Czechs in 1938-39. Once the Germans took over Czechia they equipped units with captured Czechoslovak weapons. You're correct that the Skoda works were huge weapons factories, but for ground forces. The Czechs had a weak aero industry and were seeking Soviet help since the Allies had abandoned them in 1938.

Well that is more than a little convoluted.

Czechoslovak army had 33 divisions, 4 "fast" divisions (tanks, trucks and so on), and 3 "special groups", 31 battalions of National Guard. The aviation had 63 squadrons.

The equipment was made up of around 1 million rifles, submachine guns and machine guns, 2700 artillery pieces, 1445 anti-tank weapons, 1379 mortars, 350 tanks, 70 tankettes, 6 armoured trains, 66 armoured vehicles, 217 000 horses, 31 000 trucks, motorcycles and other vehicles, 1500 airplanes.
over 500 Avia B-534s had been built before the Germans took over.
Perhaps it was the Russians who gave the Czechs the plans for this? in 1938.

There were 7 aircraft companies in Czechoslovakia in 1938.
Aero Tovarna Letadel Dr. Kabes ; est 1919
Avia : post WW I
Benes-Mraz ; 1935
Letov : 1918 oldest aircraft factory in country.
Praga : 1931
Tatra : 1935 aviation division
Zlin : 1935

There were five companies making aircraft engines. Granted several of them were small trainer engines.
Avia held licences for Hispano-Suiza engines and Lorraine.
Praga held licenses for the Isotta-Fraschini Asso-1000
Walter had quite and extensive line and licenses for Bristol Mercury & Pegasus engines and for the Gnome-Rhone K.14.
companies in Jugoslavia, Poland, Spain, Italy and France had licenses for Walter engines and in 1938 negotiation's were going on with the British.

By March of 1939 Nobody in Czechoslovakia was negotiating or buying much of anything.

 

[wiking85]

The only Soviet aircraft that the Czechslovak Airforce possessed, were 60 SB bombers (Aero and Avia built several more under license).

Czechoslovakia had seven aircraft manufacturers and were quite capable of (and did) aircraft production prior to annexation by Germany, which occurred in 1938 - which may be why the Allies "abandoned" them in 1938...

What was the most advanced Czech fighter in 1938?

 

[special ed]

Most likely, that Avia B.135 - Data indicated near to Hurricane performance with lower power H-S engine. Prototype only, taken by Germans. I have always liked the Avia B.534 biplane fighter with H-S engine. Last version of the B.534 was Series IV with all around vision canopy. The Germans tested a Series III with a hook (land trials only) for possible carrier duty on Graf Zeppelin.

 

[wiking85]

Most likely, that Avia B.135 - Data indicated near to Hurricane performance with lower power H-S engine. Prototype only, taken by Germans. I have always liked the Avia B.534 biplane fighter with H-S engine. Last version of the B.534 was Series IV with all around vision canopy. The Germans tested a Series III with a hook (land trials only) for possible carrier duty on Graf Zeppelin.

Right, so the Czech aero industry was behind the times and still only prototyping a maybe Hurricane level fighter in 1939. Their industry was set up for army weapons, not aviation.

 

[BarnOwlLover]

And in 1938-early '39 the Germans were still mostly using He-51 and Ar-68 biplanes, and Me-109B/C/Ds that couldn't top 300 mph, and the -109E just entered production late in 1938. What's your point, I must ask. In that regard, Germany was little better than most of their potential enemies and most of the nations that they would later invade. IMO, it was a good thing that they held off invading Poland until Sept. '39.

 

[GrauGeist]

The Avia B-534 was known for it's exceptional handling s well as being the last biplane to down an enemy aircraft in WWII.

In regards to biplanes in 1938 (the Czech airforce didn't exist in 1939), they were in service at that point in time, by the British, Italians, Japanese, Soviets, French and Americans.

So....

 

[wiking85]

And in 1938-early '39 the Germans were still mostly using He-51 and Ar-68 biplanes, and Me-109B/C/Ds that couldn't top 300 mph, and the -109E just entered production late in 1938. What's your point, I must ask. In that regard, Germany was little better than most of their potential enemies and most of the nations that they would later invade. IMO, it was a good thing that they held off invading Poland until Sept. '39.

Well for one thing the British didn't even have the Hurricane in service, German bombers were faster than fighters in many cases, and the French were unable to really fight either, so at the time the Germans clearly had the advantage until Allied armaments could give them peace of mind that they wouldn't get bombarded into submission. Remember the panic over Guernica, the damage being extremely exaggerated by journalists, created a complex that the Allies couldn't go to war until they could defend their airspace. Also German deception operations had convinced them the Luftwaffe was about double the size it really was.

But the key point was the ME-109E was already in service at the time at the Czech aircraft you mention was still working out as a prototype and we have no idea how the actual production model would have performed. Or how quickly production could have been ramped up. So of course they were going to buy from the one nation that was pro-Czech and willing to fight for and supply them.

 

[wiking85]

Well that is more than a little convoluted.

Czechoslovak army had 33 divisions, 4 "fast" divisions (tanks, trucks and so on), and 3 "special groups", 31 battalions of National Guard. The aviation had 63 squadrons.

The equipment was made up of around 1 million rifles, submachine guns and machine guns, 2700 artillery pieces, 1445 anti-tank weapons, 1379 mortars, 350 tanks, 70 tankettes, 6 armoured trains, 66 armoured vehicles, 217 000 horses, 31 000 trucks, motorcycles and other vehicles, 1500 airplanes.
over 500 Avia B-534s had been built before the Germans took over.
Perhaps it was the Russians who gave the Czechs the plans for this? in 1938.
View attachment 762596
There were 7 aircraft companies in Czechoslovakia in 1938.
Aero Tovarna Letadel Dr. Kabes ; est 1919
Avia : post WW I
Benes-Mraz ; 1935
Letov : 1918 oldest aircraft factory in country.
Praga : 1931
Tatra : 1935 aviation division
Zlin : 1935

There were five companies making aircraft engines. Granted several of them were small trainer engines.
Avia held licences for Hispano-Suiza engines and Lorraine.
Praga held licenses for the Isotta-Fraschini Asso-1000
Walter had quite and extensive line and licenses for Bristol Mercury & Pegasus engines and for the Gnome-Rhone K.14.
companies in Jugoslavia, Poland, Spain, Italy and France had licenses for Walter engines and in 1938 negotiation's were going on with the British.

By March of 1939 Nobody in Czechoslovakia was negotiating or buying much of anything.

What were a list of what the 1500 were and what was the serviceability? Also telling that the Germans used none of them, but has zero problem using Czech army weapons.

 

[Shortround6]

What were a list of what the 1500 were and what was the serviceability? Also telling that the Germans used none of them, but has zero problem using Czech army weapons.

There may have been around 500 Avia B.534s (568 built) of which the the Germans used a lot. granted mostly as advanced trainers and glider tugs and other 2ndary duties. They also handed some of them out to a few of their Balkan allies.
There were also around 400 of these.

62(?) went to Bulgaria in 1939, about 1/2 before the German take over and 1/2 after.

Throw in some older aircraft and/or small handfuls of planes (aero 100/101) and trainers like the Zlin XII

around 250 built, many under German occupation.
Now in 1937-38 Avia was selling airplanes to the Soviet Union.

The Avia B 122 series was rather famous in the mid 30s for success in acrobatic competitions. Including 1st and 3rd place at the International Aviation Meeting in Zurich in July/August 1937, Where the Bf109 did so well.

 

[wiking85]

There may have been around 500 Avia B.534s (568 built) of which the the Germans used a lot. granted mostly as advanced trainers and glider tugs and other 2ndary duties. They also handed some of them out to a few of their Balkan allies.

Ok? They clearly did not consider them front line aircraft so if there had been a shooting war, they'd have gotten murked like the Soviet biplane fighters in Spain once the Me109 showed up.

 

[BarnOwlLover]

As I mentioned, most Luftwaffe fighters at the time of the Munich Crisis were still a mix of biplanes themselves and early 109s that couldn't top 300 mph and some He-112s. And that can be argued as the double edged sword with not going to war with Germany back then (when they were a lot weaker than they were in 1939). Yes, the peace agreement gave Britain and France a year to rearm, but it also bought that same amount of time for Germany.

In truth in 1938, from what I've read, though they had the DB-601 powered 109s in the pipeline, the Luftwaffe wasn't a crapload better off than Italy was at the same time. Difference was by a year later the Germans (though still with some problems) were a lot better off than in Sept 1938, while say Italy or France weren't really much better off than the previous year.

 

[cammerjeff]

Ok? They clearly did not consider them front line aircraft so if there had been a shooting war, they'd have gotten murked like the Soviet biplane fighters in Spain once the Me109 showed up.

It all depends on what time frame the shooting war would be? In 1938 the German A/C were slightly better then the Chech's but if it broke out then the Chech's had a mutual defense pact with the French, British, and even the Russians. Would they all come to the Chech's aide? I have read that it was the French agreeing to the British proposal of letting the Germans have part of Czechoslovakia that caused the Russians to start negotiating with the Germans on the infamous nonaggression pact.
So a lot of things to consider. In 1938 no Bf109E's yet, the Germans still have Arado 68's and even some He51's in front line units. Also not as many modern Bombers in service yet with the Germans.
And you seem to be missing the fact that it is hard to devolope improved designs in late 1938-39 after the Germans took them over. Who can say what would have happened if the Allies had actually supported the Chech's and not given them away?

 

[Shortround6]

Ok? They clearly did not consider them front line aircraft so if there had been a shooting war, they'd have gotten murked like the Soviet biplane fighters in Spain once the Me109 showed up.

Not sure what your point is. The 109s in 1938 were the Jumo 210 powered aircraft.
And in 1938 or very early 1939 what sophisticated aircraft were the Czechs going to get from the Soviets?
I-16s and not the best ones?

My point is that the Czechs had the the best, largest, military industrial capacity between Germany/Italy and Russia.
The Czech capacity added substantially to the Germans, Czech aircraft factories could make trainers and aux aircraft so the German factories could concentrate on warplanes.