Need help to identify aircraft (1 Viewer)

[JohnP]

Hey all,
I found parts of an aircraft with part numbers but I can't find the aircraft type or something about the function of the parts. It should be an American Aircraft. Do you help me?
Thanks in advance.

first part: It's a sort of gear with the part number GM749-647(what is the function?)
second part: W21-93972
third part: 75-5127-410
fourth part: It's a little block of steel with a bevel on a side(what is the function?)

 

[YGBSM]

I'm not sure on those parts. General Motors did produce aircraft under license during WW2 (if the first part number's 'GM' does in fact represent 'General Motors'), such as the 'FM' series of Wildcat fighters which were used extensively on escort carriers.

I did a cursory search for Wildcat manuals but only found them behind a paywall here: Classic Aircraft Blueprints, Drawings & Manuals | AirCorps Library There may be members here who have access to parts lists.

In addition, you may want to provide wider angle shots of parts #s 2 and 3, as well as provide some dimensions to aid those trying to ID them.

 

[JohnP]

Thanks for your answer. Sorry, I try to take photos with dimensions and more parts without part numbers.

In addition, the parts were found in Germany. It should be an American Aircraft because I found a badge. The badge indicates more that I found parts of a bomber Aircraft.
Somehow, the badge and the GM part don`t fit together.

 

[YGBSM]

There is no need to apologize.

That is the logo of the US Army Air Forces Training Command. The pin would have been worn on the cap of US Army Air Corps cadets still in training. I am doubtful that any combat crew would have worn this insignia BUT by definition all of them would have had one from their training. Maybe one of them kept it as a good luck symbol?

Also, GM may or may not have anything to do with General Motors; however, the Allison Engine Company WAS a division of GM during WW2. In addition, General Electric turbo-superchargers were a component of the Allison engines on, let's say, a P-38 Lightning. Superchargers and turbos are "gear rich" environments, you could say - which would explain the GM part # on the gear but a seemingly different part numbering scheme on the other parts.... perhaps Allison part numbers?

The photo-recon version of the P-38 were known as the F-4 and F-5, which were standard P-38s which then had their noses modified to remove their armament to allow room for photography equipment. These aircraft, in addition to the Spitfires and Mosquitoes which were commonly used, had to fly deep into German territory to accomplish their missions.

A close-up of a turbo-supercharger on a P-38.

Source: www.kbvp.com

Some speculation - aerial photography was of course one of the technical skills taught by USAAF Training Command - an additional technical skill which MAY have caused its wearer to have a strong connection to the symbol.

Fortunately, we also have a veteran B-17 Bombardier here on the forums. billrunnels Bill, perhaps you might have some context as to when and why Training Command pins might have been worn by crews over Germany? Thanks in advance for any insights.


JohnP Keep in mind that B-17s also were turbo-supercharged - if you look closely at B-17 engine nacelles you'll be able to spot a similar structure to that shown above on the P-38. So I don't think we have any answers yet, but we at least have a few hypotheses to begin narrowing the possible range of answers.

I know there are some Allison engine gurus on the forums as well. Perhaps one of them can chime in if any of these part numbers ring a bell and/or are consistent with Allison part numbers?

EDIT: one more thing - do you have any more information regarding where these parts were found in Germany?

 

[billrunnels]

There is no need to apologize.

That is the logo of the US Army Air Forces Training Command. The pin would have been worn on the cap of US Army Air Corps cadets still in training. I am doubtful that any combat crew would have worn this insignia BUT by definition all of them would have had one from their training. Maybe one of them kept it as a good luck symbol?

Also, GM may or may not have anything to do with General Motors; however, the Allison Engine Company WAS a division of GM during WW2. In addition, General Electric turbo-superchargers were a component of the Allison engines on, let's say, a P-38 Lightning. Superchargers and turbos are "gear rich" environments, you could say - which would explain the GM part # on the gear but a seemingly different part numbering scheme on the other parts.... perhaps Allison part numbers?

The photo-recon version of the P-38 were known as the F-4 and F-5, which were standard P-38s which then had their noses modified to remove their armament to allow room for photography equipment. These aircraft, in addition to the Spitfires and Mosquitoes which were commonly used, had to fly deep into German territory to accomplish their missions.

A close-up of a turbo-supercharger on a P-38.
View attachment 506273
Source: www.kbvp.com

Some speculation - aerial photography was of course one of the technical skills taught by USAAF Training Command - an additional technical skill which MAY have caused its wearer to have a strong connection to the symbol.

Fortunately, we also have a veteran B-17 Bombardier here on the forums. billrunnels Bill, perhaps you might have some context as to when and why Training Command pins might have been worn by crews over Germany? Thanks in advance for any insights.


JohnP Keep in mind that B-17s also were turbo-supercharged - if you look closely at B-17 engine nacelles you'll be able to spot a similar structure to that shown above on the P-38. So I don't think we have any answers yet, but we at least have a few hypotheses to begin narrowing the possible range of answers.

I know there are some Allison engine gurus on the forums as well. Perhaps one of them can chime in if any of these part numbers ring a bell and/or are consistent with Allison part numbers?

EDIT: one more thing - do you have any more information regarding where these parts were found in Germany?

There is no need to apologize.

That is the logo of the US Army Air Forces Training Command. The pin would have been worn on the cap of US Army Air Corps cadets still in training. I am doubtful that any combat crew would have worn this insignia BUT by definition all of them would have had one from their training. Maybe one of them kept it as a good luck symbol?

Also, GM may or may not have anything to do with General Motors; however, the Allison Engine Company WAS a division of GM during WW2. In addition, General Electric turbo-superchargers were a component of the Allison engines on, let's say, a P-38 Lightning. Superchargers and turbos are "gear rich" environments, you could say - which would explain the GM part # on the gear but a seemingly different part numbering scheme on the other parts.... perhaps Allison part numbers?

The photo-recon version of the P-38 were known as the F-4 and F-5, which were standard P-38s which then had their noses modified to remove their armament to allow room for photography equipment. These aircraft, in addition to the Spitfires and Mosquitoes which were commonly used, had to fly deep into German territory to accomplish their missions.

A close-up of a turbo-supercharger on a P-38.
View attachment 506273
Source: www.kbvp.com

Some speculation - aerial photography was of course one of the technical skills taught by USAAF Training Command - an additional technical skill which MAY have caused its wearer to have a strong connection to the symbol.

Fortunately, we also have a veteran B-17 Bombardier here on the forums. billrunnels Bill, perhaps you might have some context as to when and why Training Command pins might have been worn by crews over Germany? Thanks in advance for any insights.


JohnP Keep in mind that B-17s also were turbo-supercharged - if you look closely at B-17 engine nacelles you'll be able to spot a similar structure to that shown above on the P-38. So I don't think we have any answers yet, but we at least have a few hypotheses to begin narrowing the possible range of answers.

I know there are some Allison engine gurus on the forums as well. Perhaps one of them can chime in if any of these part numbers ring a bell and/or are consistent with Allison part numbers?

EDIT: one more thing - do you have any more information regarding where these parts were found in Germany?

Regarding the Comm

There is no need to apologize.

That is the logo of the US Army Air Forces Training Command. The pin would have been worn on the cap of US Army Air Corps cadets still in training. I am doubtful that any combat crew would have worn this insignia BUT by definition all of them would have had one from their training. Maybe one of them kept it as a good luck symbol?

Also, GM may or may not have anything to do with General Motors; however, the Allison Engine Company WAS a division of GM during WW2. In addition, General Electric turbo-superchargers were a component of the Allison engines on, let's say, a P-38 Lightning. Superchargers and turbos are "gear rich" environments, you could say - which would explain the GM part # on the gear but a seemingly different part numbering scheme on the other parts.... perhaps Allison part numbers?

The photo-recon version of the P-38 were known as the F-4 and F-5, which were standard P-38s which then had their noses modified to remove their armament to allow room for photography equipment. These aircraft, in addition to the Spitfires and Mosquitoes which were commonly used, had to fly deep into German territory to accomplish their missions.

A close-up of a turbo-supercharger on a P-38.
View attachment 506273
Source: www.kbvp.com

Some speculation - aerial photography was of course one of the technical skills taught by USAAF Training Command - an additional technical skill which MAY have caused its wearer to have a strong connection to the symbol.

Fortunately, we also have a veteran B-17 Bombardier here on the forums. billrunnels Bill, perhaps you might have some context as to when and why Training Command pins might have been worn by crews over Germany? Thanks in advance for any insights.


JohnP Keep in mind that B-17s also were turbo-supercharged - if you look closely at B-17 engine nacelles you'll be able to spot a similar structure to that shown above on the P-38. So I don't think we have any answers yet, but we at least have a few hypotheses to begin narrowing the possible range of answers.

I know there are some Allison engine gurus on the forums as well. Perhaps one of them can chime in if any of these part numbers ring a bell and/or are consistent with Allison part numbers?

EDIT: one more thing - do you have any more information regarding where these parts were found in Germany?

I don't recognize the referenced Command Training pin. We did not have a pin on our caps while I was in the Cadet Program. We did have a wings/propeller patch on our right shirt sleeve between the elbow and hand. Also the Air Force Patch on our left shoulder.

The B-17 supercharger was located right behind the engine exhaust.

 

[YGBSM]

Thanks for info, Bill.

It appears that the Command went through several relatively rapid iterations - so that could be an explanation why the pin is unfamiliar. According to its Wikipedia page, it went through the following names:

Jan 42 - Air Corps Flying Training Command
Mar 42 - Army Air Forces Flying Training Command
July 43 - Army Air Forces Training Command (upon merging with the Army Air Forces Technical Training Command)

It could be that the pins were only worn by personnel on permanent assignment to the command - hard to say, really. It does make it that much more interesting that one of these pins made its way to Germany!

Here is the referenced pin with the Prop & Wings pin:

How it might have been worn:

Source for above: Army Air Corps Cadet, Pilots and Instructors: WWII Flight Training

A radio operator or pilot trained in aerial photography would both qualify as personnel who might have attended the Technical Training Command in particular and each representing an aircraft (B-17 / P-38) which would have turbo-superchargers aboard. Admittedly, I'm out "on a limb" with my Allison / GM hypothesis but that's the best I've been able to come up with which potentially ties together the pin and parts. It does seem odd for someone to wear ANY training pin / insignia after one has graduated as well...


Another interesting item is that the documentation associated with the P-38 also tends to have the number "75" in their ID numbers, like the 3rd part number in the OP (see: P-38 Lightning - Blueprints, Drawings & Documents | AirCorps Library). I'm wondering if that is a Lockheed numerical designation for the aircraft....

Hopefully someone with familiarity with engines can help sort out the part numbers.

 

[Wurger]

 

[MiTasol]

Hey all,
I found parts of an aircraft with part numbers but I can't find the aircraft type or something about the function of the parts. It should be an American Aircraft. Do you help me?
Thanks in advance.

third part: 75-5127-410

is probably off a B-17 flap

The rest I do not know but GM does not necessarily mean General Motors.

A search of a B-17 parts catalog may find more.

There are probably many sources on line. I would suggest Classic Aircraft Blueprints, Drawings & Manuals | AirCorps Library as a starting point as I know they have at least one B-17 parts list

 

[YGBSM]

That's a good catch!

I was able to get a hold of a Parts Catalog for a B-17G (AN 01-20EG-4); unfortunately, it doesn't provide any clear answers.

Here is the relevant page from the catalog:

A good guess might be that the 3rd part in the OP is a component of the flap assembly; however, the component parts listed use a different numbering scheme. This isn't 100% conclusive as it is possible there were different part numbers for earlier B-17 variants. Or there may be another part numbering system in play which translates to these part numbers. That said, it doesn't appear any major changes were made to the wing itself between models (excepting the engines from the D to E model).

I indexed the document to make it text searchable and was trying different snippets of the part numbers to see if I got any 'hits'. Nothing appeared to be a match.

 

[JohnP]

EDIT: one more thing - do you have any more information regarding where these parts were found in Germany?

The parts were found in the area of the Eifel(Rhineland).
I attached some pictures of the entire parts which has found until now.
A few parts were actually found on the forest floor.

Regarding the engine of a B17 bomber, I found no parts number which fits with the gear.Catalog Part 851653 Parts Catalog for Wright Cyclone Aircraft Engines Series GR-1820G-200

 

[MiTasol]

is probably off a B-17 flap
View attachment 506392

The rest I do not know but GM does not necessarily mean General Motors.

A search of a B-17 parts catalog may find more.

There are probably many sources on line. I would suggest Classic Aircraft Blueprints, Drawings & Manuals | AirCorps Library as a starting point as I know they have at least one B-17 parts list

I just had a quick look at drawing 75-5127 on Aircorps site and there are two -410 angles per flap. Sorry I do not have time to look for the other items but given the number of parts you are looking at purchasing a minimum subscription to Aircorps would be worth your time

 

[JohnP]

I just had a quick look at drawing 75-5127 on Aircorps site and there are two -410 angles per flap. Sorry I do not have time to look for the other items but given the number of parts you are looking at purchasing a minimum subscription to Aircorps would be worth your time
View attachment 506507

Thank you for your efforts to identify the type of aircraft. Finally, there are still two unknown parts(gear and steel block). I'm curious what else I'll find.
In addition, I detected a magnetic property of the steel block? Do anyone know a possible function for an aircraft?

 

[AMCKen]

"SUSTINEO ALAS" "I am waiting for wings" according to google translate

 

[YGBSM]

I just had a quick look at drawing 75-5127 on Aircorps site and there are two -410 angles per flap. Sorry I do not have time to look for the other items but given the number of parts you are looking at purchasing a minimum subscription to Aircorps would be worth your time
View attachment 506507

That's a GREAT find - well done!

 

[JohnP]

Finally, I could find out the serial number of the aircraft. The parts which I had found should be the rest of the aircraft.
Thank for your support.
42-30210 | American Air Museum in Britain

 

[ssg keay]

You found a B-17G, the part with number 75-5127-410, is a part from the flap assembly in the wing.

Ok, I should have gone to the end of the threat, then I would have seen that you already knew this information.