Need Perfomance Charts for Late War BF 109s

[DarrenW]

Does anyone know where I can find accurate level speed performance charts for the Bf 109G-10, G-14, and 109K-4, similar to these for the FW 190A-8 and D-9 models that are found on www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org? The more subject aircraft the better. I've tried to find them in a thread somewhere on the forum but came up empty. I would like to make a quick comparison of the high altitude performance of these late-war German fighters.Thanks!

 

[eagledad]

darrenw

Have you checked

kurfurst.org?

Eagledad

 

[DarrenW]

Yes Eagledad I have, but I was looking for something that is in the same measurement format (Imperial rather than Metric) and can be used for quick reference. The aircraft performance website site that I mentioned has multiple aircraft in various configurations which have been conveniently graphed together, which comes in handy when I want to compare the various flight test data visually, all at the very same time.

I guess I could combine the graphs on Kurfurst's website into a single one myself, but I didn't want to "re-invent the wheel" if this was already accomplished by another person.

Thanks for the advice either way...

 

[tomo pauk]

Darren - a quick link:
Spitfire Mk XIV versus Me 109 G/K (has data on late models of the 109Gs in imperial units)
There is a table 'floating' at the 'net with translated data on the 109Ks: in case people don't point you out I'll look it up following week. Cheers.

 

[DarrenW]

Darren - a quick link:
Spitfire Mk XIV versus Me 109 G/K (has data on late models of the 109Gs in imperial units)
There is a table 'floating' at the 'net with translated data on the 109Ks: in case people don't point you out I'll look it up following week. Cheers.

Thanks Tomo that's a great webpage you recommended, I totally missed that one. I appreciate your willingness to help concerning the translated 109K data too.

 

[tomo pauk]

Here is the table I was talking about (I don't know where it originates from):



Please note that K14, with the 2-stage DB 605L, is supposed to use MW50 even on Combat & Climb power setting.
Original of the upper table: link.

A topic covering late 109s, with useful graphs, links etc: link

 

[DarrenW]

Thanks Tomo for digging all that up for me. I have more than enough data to keep me busy for a long while....

 

[DarrenW]

I found this statement at Spitfire Mk XIV versus Me 109 G/K to be rather eye-opening:

...Unfortunately, flight trials of Me 109 Ks appear not to exist. The following Me 109 K curves were produced by Messerschmitt's Project Bureau at Oberammergau. 30 31 While the curves are rather simplistic estimates (the effect of the hydraulic coupled supercharger being absent for example), they should give some idea of potential, however, they should be treated with reserve.

Has this been confirmed by 109 enthusiasts here?

 

[gomwolf]

Bf109G-10(climbing with Kampfleistung)

 

[DarrenW]

Thank you gomwolf for the very interesting chart.

 

[tomo pauk]

I found this statement at Spitfire Mk XIV versus Me 109 G/K to be rather eye-opening:

...Unfortunately, flight trials of Me 109 Ks appear not to exist. The following Me 109 K curves were produced by Messerschmitt's Project Bureau at Oberammergau. 30 31 While the curves are rather simplistic estimates (the effect of the hydraulic coupled supercharger being absent for example), they should give some idea of potential, however, they should be treated with reserve.

Has this been confirmed by 109 enthusiasts here?

IIRC, the chart 30 is for performance when A/C has the new, thin-bladed prop instead of the standard prop.

 

[CORSNING]

KURFURST

 

[CORSNING]

KURFURST

 

[CORSNING]

Darren,
I am going to wait until I get an OK from the moderator before
I post anything more. Kurfurst put together an excellent site on
the Bf/Me.109 that surpasses all for this aircraft. I have read a
lot of controversy about his supposedly biased opinions. However
I still to this date have not seen another site equal his postings
on this aircraft. Mr. Mike Williams and Mr. Neil Stirling also have
an excellent amount of information on the Bf.109.

 

[DarrenW]

IIRC, the chart 30 is for performance when A/C has the new, thin-bladed prop instead of the standard prop.

Was this thin-bladed prop used operationally? I only remember seeing the rather fat-bladed propeller in photographs.

 

[DarrenW]

Darren,
I am going to wait until I get an OK from the moderator before
I post anything more. Kurfurst put together an excellent site on
the Bf/Me.109 that surpasses all for this aircraft. I have read a
lot of controversy about his supposedly biased opinions. However
I still to this date have not seen another site equal his postings
on this aircraft. Mr. Mike Williams and Mr. Neil Stirling also have
an excellent amount of information on the Bf.109.

Thanks CORNING. I have been to Kurfurst's site but found it a bit confusing to navigate and understand, not being well educated on the subject. And my limited knowledge of the German language definitely doesn't help matters at all....

Besides the webpage that focuses on the Spitfire Mk XIV verses the BF 109G/K provided earlier by Tomo, I could only find information about the earlier G model 109s on the Williams/ Stirling site. Is there something else there that I'm missing concerning the late model 109Gs and Ks?

 

[DarrenW]

From Spitfire Mk XIV versus Me 109 G/K :


Conditions in Germany during the last year of the war, however, were not conducive to aircraft achieving maximum theoretical performance levels. Hans Knickrehm of I/JG 3 recalled the condition of new Me 109 G-14/AS's received by his group in October, 1944:

The machines that were delivered were technically obsolete and of considerably lowered quality. The engines proved prone to trouble after much too short a time, because the factories had had to sharply curtail test runs for lack of fuel. The surface finish of the outer skin also left much to be desired. The sprayed-on camouflage finish was rough and uneven. The result was a further reduction in speed. We often discovered clear cases of sabotage during our acceptance checks. Cables or wires were not secured, were improperly attached, scratched or had even been visibly cut....

At a conference in Berlin on 20 January 1945, with the Chief Engineer of the Luftwaffe, it was reported that the Me 109 airframe was extraordinarily bad and performance outrageously low. Daimler-Benz noted that there was no point in continually increasing engine power when the airframes were getting worse due to sloppy manufacturing. A comparison between the Me 109 and the Mustang was devastating....

It didn't help matters that ground crews, who might have ameliorated these problems to some degree, were being transferred to the infantry in significant numbers. The primitive conditions existing at Luftwaffe airfields was an additional complication. Bombing and strafing attacks further taxed the ground crew's ability to maintain the aircraft anywhere near the degree necessary to even approach theoretical performance levels.....

From this I gather that due to various reasons the theoretical performance given by the manufacturer were never met in field, not even close it would seem. I need to read up on Allied encounter reports to get a feeling of how difficult it actually was to make or break combat with a BF 109 in 1945. Granted pilot skill will have something to do with how well an airplane will handle in combat, but overall aircraft performance is an important factor as well.

 

[Denniss]

Was this thin-bladed prop used operationally? I only remember seeing the rather fat-bladed propeller in photographs.

AFAIR the "Dünnblattschraube" was in the prototype stage