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Claidemore,
Considering that the 109s Clmax was higher than the Spitfire's by a factor of 0.34 at freeflow I believe it will stay at this. So if the Spitfire at full throttle reached a Clmax of 1.85 then the Bf-109 would reach one at around 2.15 to 2.20.
Also remember that the British Clmax figures are calculations based on the turn performance achieved in British tests, and we all know that these are highly unreliable as the pilots were vary about going beyond slat deployment. Hence why a 190 Jabo did much better in their tests.
drgondog said:Soren - If you wish to prove your thesis, get the weights of the Me 109s under test, the horsepoer and velocity at stall for a specific altitude and the turn times and you will have your specific Clmax for that condition.. and BTW is will be a valid one independent of whether the 109 tested was perfect or whether the test pilot was the best - it will be close enough within a couple of percent.
drgondog said:The Soviet and Brit tests will be good enough to establish the range of Clmax for the 109 tested.
drgondog said:They are a collection of data. So far I have seen US and Brit and VVS and Finn test results but nobody seems to be able to present the Rechlin Test resluts (and data) demonstrating the German POV..
Here's some info that backs up the Soviet turn time tests on the Spitfire. The following clip is from R&M2381, June 1940.
Note the turn time, 18.5 seconds (at normal power). Also note Clmax of 1.75.
Just because you have a collection of data doesn't mean it's right. And as a serious researcher you know better than to judge a book by its' cover.
Soren - I agree the analogy but the 'book' so far has three serious documented chapters with data that you can assess and think upon - the chapters read "RAF', Finn and VVS' regarding documented and reported comparative flight tests surrounding the 109 and 109 vs Fw 190 vs Spit vs Mustang - but the chapter on Luftwaffe test results is still missing.
As for the German tests, there is only one comparison between the Spitfire 109 available at this point, and it's from 1940, a period in which not many pilots trusted the slats as they tended to jam in the Emil series.
I agree that just one documented report with the framework you describe above is not above reproach, nor is it the last word - but even that, if introduced into this dialogue, provides a reference for 'serious research'.
Absent even this report you are thrust into making your agruments based on anecdotal references from LW pilots which have equal and opposite points of view from anecdotal recollections from Soviet, US and RAF pilots
There is another one however which lists a turn time of 18.92 seconds, and from all I can see it is a flight testsed figure and not a calculated one as VG-33 claims. (And I'd like to see his proof that they are calculated values!)
According to the estimations of our enemy, German General Walter [Shvabedissen] in his book "Stalin falcons" the number of commanders [Lyuftvaffe] they mention, that at the end 1941 g. on the scene appeared the English and American fighters (Curtiss R -40 and "Hurricane"), which were being supplied within the framework of agreement about the lend-lease. This created some difficulties German fighters, but Soviet pilots could not attain from these machines of the best indices, than from their. Evaluating American fighter R -40, in the report JG 54 it is indicated that on the horizontal maneuverability it was equal German Bf to 109F, but it was inferior to it in the speed and the rate of climb. According to the Russian captured pilot, the aircraft did not enjoy popularity in Soviet pilots.
I would like to take advantage of this discussion to ask something in parallel to the "109 vertical heaviness"...
i read several times in polish and french books that the SPIT's ailerons authority and force needed to move them increased dramasticaly with the speed, something like you needed 2hands to roll the spit above 500mk/h, some pilots pushing with their elbow on the cockpit's sides to put the plane in the turn at high speed.
Are ther some "real numbers" on the stick forces needed Vs Speed for the spit?
Thanks.
Ps: My english still sucks, so pardon me.