Options to save a trapped ball turret gunner in a bomber wheels up landing

All,

I know of one and only one incident when a B17 had to make a belly landing and couldnt get the BTG out. In the entire war. The combination of battle damage that made it impossible to get the gear down, and also crank the ball turret down, guns pointing down, (hatch inside the fuselage) so that the gunner could get out was rare. Only one incident in the entire war. I know the pilot of this airplane circled his field for some time, with everyone trying to figure out how to get the gunner out, fuel finally forced him to land. Also my dad flying B17's in WW2 told me of an incident when his ship was heavily damaged, 2 engines out. They jettisoned everything not riveted down and worked for several hours trying to detach the ball turret, which supposedly was possible to do, even in flight, but finally gave up. And no, flying inverted in a 17' to make a landing was not an option for most of the reasons previously noted. The ship was capable of inverted flight, for a few seconds, as my dad found out when he hit what he thought was the prop wash of a group in front of him. His ship was tossed on its back and it took 2000 feet to recover. The B 17 was truly a remarkable plane and dad told me several times through the years that had he been flying any other bomber... I would not be here today!

CAPT G. Graves Naval Aviator, USN ret.

Jenisch said:

Hello,

I found out a terrible story of a B-17 that couldn't deploy it's landing gear, and at the same time the ball turret gunner was by some reason trapped inside the turret. Unfornately he had an unpleseant death, as the aircraft landed in such way. I don't know what was the state of the aircraft, but since the hydraulics were out it could have been damaged.

If I was a pilot, to try save the men I was thinking of try put the B-17 down upside down, but don't know if would be possible for the B-17 to fly upside down. I think it would be needed to put it in a high speed dive, and the control forces generated would render the attempt useless. Not to mention the risk would be very high. The other crew members would not be much a problem for this, if possible, as they would be able to bail out.

Certainly the crew tried the most they could to save him, but do you people think that assuming an all functional plane it would be possible to do something?

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If I was engineering that ball turret I would design it to break off and be pushed into the fuselage. That would be to minimise structural damage to the airframe and also to provide a good chance for a gunner that was trapped in the ball turret. Id be surprised if this wasn't done. Would you make the attachments so strong?

Koopernic said:

If I was engineering that ball turret I would design it to break off and be pushed into the fuselage. That would be to minimise structural damage to the airframe and also to provide a good chance for a gunner that was trapped in the ball turret. Id be surprised if this wasn't done. Would you make the attachments so strong?

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I don't know if that was ever the intention but look photos of the ball turret from the inside of a B-17 or B-24. I would not call the installation a bastion of structural fortitude!

FLYBOYJ said:

I don't know if that was ever the intention but look photos of the ball turret from the inside of a B-17 or B-24. I would not call the installation a bastion of structural fortitude!


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Three things can happen; the turret ball can collapse, the turret mountings can detach and the ball end up in the fuselage or the aircraft structure can collapse. I'm sure there were a lot of belly landings without a trapped gunner.

This is a movie of Stunt Pilot Many Manz crashing a B17 for a movie. There is no Belly Turret.

This is a video of an actual 1944 B17 belly landing. The narrator says "ball turret jettisoned to save breaking his back"

This is a B17 crash landing with only one wheel, the turret is still present, the remaining undercarriage leg does not collapse

This is a B17 crash landing with only one wheel, the turret is still present, the remaining undercarriage leg dose collapse half way through the landing but there appears no damage or collapse. Interesting is the ground crew that come along with air bladders to inflate and lift the aircraft. Also what looks like a fireman in PPE with some kind of breathing bladder on his back.

I can not find video of a ball turret collapse.

Koopernic said:

Three things can happen; the turret ball can collapse, the turret mountings can detach and the ball end up in the fuselage or the aircraft structure can collapse. I'm sure there were a lot of belly landings without a trapped gunner.

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I've had the opportunity to be around a ball turret purchased by a company I worked for 40 years ago. They are as thick and dense as a battleship anchor. The only way I can see the ball turret caving in if it was first dragged along a concrete runway and then weight placed on the right spot to compromise it's construction. "The turret mountings detaching and the ball ending up in the fuselage or the aircraft structure collapsing" will be the more likely scenario IMO. In either case it would be like going over Niagara Falls in a barrel for the guy inside.

Koopernic said:

Three things can happen; the turret ball can collapse, the turret mountings can detach and the ball end up in the fuselage or the aircraft structure can collapse. I'm sure there were a lot of belly landings without a trapped gunner.

This is a movie of Stunt Pilot Many Manz crashing a B17 for a movie. There is no Belly Turret.

This is a video of an actual 1944 B17 belly landing. The narrator says "ball turret jettisoned to save breaking his back"

This is a B17 crash landing with only one wheel, the turret is still present, the remaining undercarriage leg does not collapse

This is a B17 crash landing with only one wheel, the turret is still present, the remaining undercarriage leg dose collapse half way through the landing but there appears no damage or collapse. Interesting is the ground crew that come along with air bladders to inflate and lift the aircraft. Also what looks like a fireman in PPE with some kind of breathing bladder on his back.

I can not find video of a ball turret collapse.

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"Also what looks like a fireman in PPE with some kind of breathing bladder on his back." I think the thing on his back is his hood and helmet which seems to be attached at the back of his jacket.