Options to save a trapped ball turret gunner in a bomber wheels up landing

[Jenisch]

Hello,

I found out a terrible story of a B-17 that couldn't deploy it's landing gear, and at the same time the ball turret gunner was by some reason trapped inside the turret. Unfornately he had an unpleseant death, as the aircraft landed in such way. I don't know what was the state of the aircraft, but since the hydraulics were out it could have been damaged.

If I was a pilot, to try save the men I was thinking of try put the B-17 down upside down, but don't know if would be possible for the B-17 to fly upside down. I think it would be needed to put it in a high speed dive, and the control forces generated would render the attempt useless. Not to mention the risk would be very high. The other crew members would not be much a problem for this, if possible, as they would be able to bail out.

Certainly the crew tried the most they could to save him, but do you people think that assuming an all functional plane it would be possible to do something?

 

[tyrodtom]

I don't see how landing upside down would save the ball turret gunner.
Have you ever noticed the radical nose-up attitude ( nose down when you're in the aircraft) a aircraft has to take to fly upside down ? Plus the stall speed would be higher upside down. Now imagine trying to land like that. That's even IF a B-17 could fly upside down.
Rolling the aircraft into a flaming ball on the runway isn't going to help the ball gunner.

The turret was stuck so the gunner couldn't get out, and ball turrets were too tight for most gunners to wear a parachute. So they couldn't just drop the turret. The landing gear was stuck also, and being after a mission the aircraft probably low on fuel. So they probably didn't have a lot of time to come up with any bright ideas.

 

[vikingBerserker]

I think the problem of upside down would be the tail would hit first and slam the cockpit into the runway while probably killing the pilot and/or copilot. I'm not sure what you could do beyond almost stalling the plane above a freshly plowed field and drop the turret.

 

[gumbyk]

I'd doubt that any bomber would be able to fly inverted. They wouldn't have had inverted fuel/oil systems, so the engines would have quit pretty quickly.

If you managed to land it, most likely, the aircraft would roll itself into a ball, and kill all remaining aboard (including the gunner and pilots), so the outcome would be worse.

Even if everything was functioning normally, in this situation, the outcome is grim.

 

[wuzak]

Maybe if there was a grass bank off to one side of the runway the pilot could set one wing down on that the other on the flat, hopefully allowing clearence for the ball turret.

 

[model299]

There was a discussion on that very subject in this thread.

 

[jimh]

The B-17 is an electric airplane...there are two things that are hydraulic, the brakes and the cowl flaps. The Ball Turret is electric. There is a tool kit attached to the turret assembly that allows you to drop the turret from the airframe in the event of a gear failure. The turret mount will shove through the top of the fuselage rendering this part of the airframe beyond useful repair. There are also hand cranks to manipulate the turret in such a way to get the crewmember out...if that doesn't work you can put the turret in neutral by disengaging the clutch. I've been flying a B-17 for almost 10 years how and I've never seen or heard a first hand account of a ball turret gunner getting crushed...if anything the turret will push through the fuselage out of harms way.

jim

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Thanks for the clarification Jim! We ran a thread about this earlier. If a B-17 landed gear up with the ball turret full down it would either get pushed in (as stated by Jim) or it would break the back of the aircraft. The ball turret is not a delicate piece of hardware and is rather robust in construction. On the earlier thread someone submitted stories about personnel being killed while stuck inside a ball turret. I don't know the validity of these stories but if proven to be true, I would think that being tossed around within a stuck turret would be the cause of death rather than the turret collapsing around the unfortunate gunner.

I believe Andy Rooney said he witnessed this during one of the missions be flew as a reporter during WW2. With all respect to Mr. Rooney, IMO its utter BS…

 

[drgondog]

Jim - doesn't the B-17 have a hand crank to get the Mains down? Would one main gear come down even if the other doesn't? If so that would possibly give some relief to a full contact smack on the Ball wouldn't it?

 

[tyrodtom]

Andy Rooney explained it as a hydraulic failure, but that was just his explanation. He mechanical knowledge of a B-17 probably went no further than how to open the entry hatch.

There's plenty of ways battle damage could have made it so neither could be moved by their manual systems though.

Sturdy as that turret might be, I can't see any chance of riding out a wheels up landing in it, it'd be the first part of the aircraft to touch the runway.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Andy Rooney explained it as a hydraulic failure, but that was just his explanation. He mechanical knowledge of a B-17 probably went no further than how to open the entry hatch.

There's plenty of ways battle damage could have made it so neither could be moved by their manual systems though.

Sturdy as that turret might be, I can't see any chance of riding out a wheels up landing in it, it'd be the first part of the aircraft to touch the runway.

 

[drgondog]

Joe - I wonder if left Main down and right main collapsed in this pic?

 

[drgondog]

Andy Rooney explained it as a hydraulic failure, but that was just his explanation. He mechanical knowledge of a B-17 probably went no further than how to open the entry hatch.

There's plenty of ways battle damage could have made it so neither could be moved by their manual systems though.

Sturdy as that turret might be, I can't see any chance of riding out a wheels up landing in it, it'd be the first part of the aircraft to touch the runway.

Seems possible to touch tail wheel and (slim possibility) ride nose high until it stalls.

 

[barney]

Andy Rooney explained it as a hydraulic failure, but that was just his explanation. He mechanical knowledge of a B-17 probably went no further than how to open the entry hatch.

Yeah, the gear is electric.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Joe - I wonder if left Main down and right main collapsed in this pic?

Hard to say - I have another one where the back of the aircraft is split in two at the bulkhead where the turret is installed.

Riding in a turret during a wheels up landing is like going over Niagara Falls in a barrel. I think chances of survival are increased if one was to get the tail wheel or at least one MLG down. Bottom line, the ball isn't going to shatter like it was depicted on that Steven Spielberg TV show that aired many years ago.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jK22liTIoqw

 

[TheMustangRider]

Hey, I remember watching that show on reruns during the mid-90's when I was child, brings back so much memories!
It was on that episode when I saw a B-17 the first time ever

 

[jimh]

The Main Gear, Tailwheel, Flaps, Bombay Doors, Chin Turret, Top Turret and Ball Turret are electric. The Main Gear, Flaps, Tailwheel, and Bombay Doors have hand cranks. The Ball Turret also has its own unique hand cranks that work both inside and outside the turret.

When the gear "retracted" on Aluminum Overcast" during rollout a few years ago the ballturret pole punctured the fuselage and did little damage to the turret. The ball turret is is considered "armored" and quite thick. It would take alot of punishment.

jim

 

[Vitamin-P]

Andy Rooney did, indeed, write such a story. I believe I read, somewhere, that Mr. Rooney admitted that he did not witness the event he wrote about. No one has produced any documentation of such an incident. The National Museum of the United States Air Force calls it an "urban legend." However, a story published in World War II Magazine about two 100BG B-17s that collided might satisfy the myth, though not as poetically. The ball turret gunner, Sgt. Joseph L. Russo, was stuck in his turret, and died in resulting crash landing. Read the following:
http://www.historynet.com/bizarre-b-17-collision-over-the-north-sea-during-world-war-ii.htm and
https://100thbg.com/index.php?option=com_bombgrp&view=personnel&Itemid=334&id=4536
I'll add, that my father was a flight engineer/gunner on B-24 Liberators with the 14AF 308BG 375BS. He told a story that attests to the robustness of the mounting of the ball turret in the airframe. A B-24, returned from a combat mission with the ball turret retracted into the fuselage, but the guns not rotated to horizontal. The gun barrels hit the runway, and bent the airframe. The airplane had to be written off.

 

[parsifal]

Further discussion on this issue can be found here:


Story Of Heroism - The trapped belly turret gunner

 

[Jugman]

I think it's entirely plausible that a ball turret could be damaged in such a way that it would collapse on landing. But it's not very likely that this would happen without killing the occupant in the process. That being said it's surprising to me the kind of damage an aircraft can take and not kill or even in some cases seriously injure those inside. By far my favorite example is the case of the P-47 that bomb the runway he was landing on. Needless to say his ship had signs of considerable misuse after the event. I can't remember the pilot's name but he suffered only minor injuries.