P-47D-30 automatic flaps mystery vs Chat GPT

[wrathofatlantis]

During the 1943 Eglin Fighter Conference, C. Hart Miller, Republic's vice president, showed considerable interest in the F6F's flap design and its use in combat maneuvering, as well as the P-38's maneuvering flaps. He repeatedly steered the discussion back to combat flaps. This makes me wonder whether the "blow-up" flap arrangement on later P-47Ds may have been influenced by what he learned at the conference.

Quotes from the conference:

COL. GRISWOLD, CCR:
Any more on the present airplane we are discussing? If not let's go to the next one. The F6F — who here is most familiar with it?

MR. MILLER, Republic:
I would like to hear some discussion on the trick flap business. Automatic flap.

LT. COL. HUDELL, I Fighter Com.:
Personally, I think it is the finest flap I have ever flown.

MR. BURCHAM, Lockheed:
I thought the flap did a great deal for the F6F in turns. Of course, that's just my opinion.

MR. CHILTON, North American:
Will agree with you there, but thought the elevator loads were heavy without flaps.

MR. BURCHAM, Lockheed:
You have a shorter turning radius with the flaps out.

LT. COL. STARKE, AFSAT, Orlando:
Think it does for the F6F exactly what it does for the P-38.

LT. COL. GUTHRIE, Eglin Field:
It does. Slows it down 75 mph.

MR. BURCHAM, Lockheed:
Don't like the automatic flap control dial. Should be a button you can reach with your hand so you can get rid of the flaps in a hurry.

LT. COL. HUDELL, I Fighter Com.:
When you pull up you don't get a torque effect like you do with most airplanes. Pull up in a climb and you are not going to spill out of it.

……

MR. MILLER, Republic:
I never did understand what the general opinion was on maneuver flaps. Is such a feature of any value? I think they are damn good flaps.

MAJ. MacMILLAN, Eglin Field:
Got to be fairly high before you notice any great difference.

MR. BURCHAM, Lockheed:
Better in high altitude than any place else. You all know when you get about 30,000 feet you are in stall all the time.

LT. COL. STARKE, AFSAT, Orlando:
The P-38 and P-47 — with maneuver flaps pulled in on the 38, cannot stay with the P-47 on turn. With maneuver flaps down, just about on a par.

LT. COL. COOPER, 1MAD:
The radius of turn is not as important as time of turn.

Very interesting post. Thanks for posting this... Interesting to see that the P-38 and early Razorback P-47 were considered neck and neck in turns... The statement (at the end) that radius is less important than turn time is probably a misapprehension of how weak firepower was: A faster turn time tends to put you in front, with no guarantee of a prolonged aiming lead. A smaller radius gets you a stable aiming lead, which is priceless.

It is the same assumption that results in weak WWII mock dogfight conclusions (I am thinking specifically of the well-known mock dogfight between a Spitfire IX and a Merlin P-51, where several Allied pilots agreed the Spitfire was superior, probably based on fleeting target times: Assumed gun lethality is why video games look so artificial, and so unlike gun camera footage.

This difference with gun camera footage is largely due to the 2% hit rate. Even at 200 mph in a curve, the firing point is left behind, and the extra ballistic curve this creates, plus the turn curvature, means the shots are nowhere near the point of aim (when sitting on the ground)... One captured Fw-190 had its sight set up to land the shots ten feet high at 150 yards, and naturally the British thought this was "wrong"...

There wasn't even an agreement on how to set up the aiming point...

Great post, which may have shed some light, as the Razorback flaps were definitely manual and, unlike the P-51, limited to very low speeds.

The statement by MacMillan that "You got to go fairly high before you notice any great difference (with flaps)." is absolutely not how P-51 pilots thought of them: On the deck, the P-51's flap angles were discussed over the radio during the actual dogfight! The flaps were crucial to the P-51's turn performance right down to the weeds. I would even say it would not be the aircraft we know without them.