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I wasn't suggesting that the British invented the cavity magnetron, but rather that it advanced the development of airborne radar in the US when it was brought over in 1940.
Are you aware of development of gun-laying radar for aircraft in the US during the war?
The Black Widow night fighter used its on-board radar only to plot intercept courses when pursuing enemy aircraft. Once having used closed with his target, the pilot of the Black Widow sighted his prey by eye and used a conventional optical gunsight to fire his guns at the enemy. Operationally-practical radar-directed airborne fire control was still many years in the future. Nevertheless, there were some experiments with the Black Widow in which automatic airborne fire control was tried out. The P-61B-25-NO was a block of seven experimental aircraft which were fitted with a Western Electric APG-1 gun-laying radar which was coupled with a General Electric remote-controlled turret system. The radar fed data into an analogue computer, which in turn directed the turret guns onto the target. One P-61B-15-NO was also modified in this fashion, and the first six P-61B-20-NO aircraft were also modified to this configuration. All of these aircraft were tested by the Air Proving Command at Elgin Field, Florida and at the night fighter training establishment at Hammer Field in California. However, I don't think that this innovation ever made it to the field.
I would have thought that the gun laying radar would be shorter range than the search radar, so you would need both?
I can't find any information about the APG-1 or APG-2.
Do you have nay links that would help?
The first question is why do you think the gun layer would be shorter ranged? Sure, when talking about actual .50 caliber guns we don't need 10 mile range, the effective range of the guns is going to be something less than 2000 yards, so that is one driver to short range. However why can't the gun layer also serve as the AI radar? It could guide you to the target and, when close enough, direct the guns also.
Forget defensive fire. The only value of the turret in night/blind fighting is offensive in the forward quadrant. Technology of the time didn't allow for 360 degree spherical radar coverage. Defensive fire was a strictly visual business.But the forward facing radar is little usefulness for gun-laying for the turret, as the majority of the turret's field of fire is not covered by the radar. Sure, it will give some direction in offensive operations when the turret is being used in the forward position, but not for all of its elevation and certainly not for defensive fire to the rear.
I though the gun-laying radar would be shorter range as that's all it needs to be.
You make a good point about the radar being able to do both search and track and gun-laying. It should be possible.
And it may be possible to put a pipper on the pilot's gun sight for the fixed guns. Help him line up the shot. It may have even been the case with the Mosquito and the AI MK.X (SCR 720).
But the forward facing radar is little usefulness for gun-laying for the turret, as the majority of the turret's field of fire is not covered by the radar. Sure, it will give some direction in offensive operations when the turret is being used in the forward position, but not for all of its elevation and certainly not for defensive fire to the rear.
OkayThe radar scanned.
Like he'd call out elevation, azimuth, and range?In the original versions the radar operator would direct the gunner as to where to aim.
How were the operating parameters adjusted? Basically was this like what a lock-on does but manually adjusting everything?I don't believe that the operator directed the radar as such, but monitored it and adjusted the operating parameters.
Like he'd call out elevation, azimuth, and range?
How were the operating parameters adjusted? Basically was this like what a lock-on does but manually adjusting everything?
I never knew the Japanese and Russians developed them, fascinating.Token said:By the end of the war the Japanese, completely independent of any knowledge of British or US efforts, had a working short wavelength cavity magnetron. The Russians also had an indigenously developed version.
Quite a few according to this site AN/APG to AN/APH - Equipment ListingWeren't most of the AN/APG designated series during WW II gun layers of one type or another?
I'm not sure as for their SCR designators, but from what it would appear that the following radars did the following things...Some as aids to manual tracking, some as automatic systems, and I know a few were also bomb / torpedo radars. The AN/APG-1 (SCR-580) and the AN/APG-2 (SCR-702) come to mind (or maybe switch those two SCR numbers, see below).
Auto-track means blind-shooting or lock-on right?I remember both of those as auto tracking systems, similar in function to the ground based SCR-584 (a system I do have firsthand experience with, and no, I am not that old) and tried on several aircraft, including, I think, the P-61.
The APG-3 was used on the B-29 and B-36B; the APG-15 was used on the B-29B, and PB4Y.Weren't the AN/APG-3 and APG-15 both 10 GHz auto tracking gun layers developed for the B-29 or B-32? Others, like the AN/APG-5 (SCR-726), were range only radars.
Can you put those images up?From what I have found it appears as if maybe 6 or so aircraft were used with first the APG-1 and some of them later APG-2. These seem to have been P-61 B aircraft, Block 25, serial numbers 43-8231 to 43-8236. Pictures I have found of 2 of these aircraft do seem to show a differently painted radome than on other P-61's.
What kind of platform issues?The SCR-720 used a simple helical scan, just its main beam swept out in space in a helical fashion. Viewed from above the RC-94 antenna swept around and around continuously clockwise with 2 different scan speeds, 360 RPM and 100 RPM (100 RPM being use din long range and beacon modes). The transmitter was inhibited whenever it was pointed back towards the aircraft, so this resulted in an arc in front of the aircraft. The beam was about 10 degrees wide in azimuth and elevation. So a single sweep was an arc 10 degrees tall. The end points of the arc, the angle off the nose in azimuth, was controllable, and might be as wide as 180 degrees, +/- 90 off the nose. Each revolution of the antenna it could be automatically (or manually) stepped up in 5 degree increments (half the 10 degree beamwidth). The antenna hardware could mechanically see up and down 60 degrees, or twelve 5 degree steps up and down. However there were issues with low altitude scans (not only ground clutter issues but also platform issues) so the usable limitations were more like -30 to +60 degrees elevation.
So the conical scan provides some kind of triangulation function (from what I vaguely remember as the beam spins round and round, it produces two lobes as it does) and more precision while the raster function basically swings left and right?The APG-1/2 used a Palmer scan, combining a raster function with its conical scan. The conical scan was required for the angles aspect (azimuth and elevation) of the automated track capability, if they had not used conical they would have had to use some other node switching scan, and the conical scan had been perfected for application to the SCR-584. The raster function allowed the conical scan to be rapidly swept across large areas of the sky.
How long would it take in comparison. To do a 360-degree scan on the SCR-720 it 6 revolutions every second, or 2160 degrees per second.Because the APG-1/2 used this Palmer / raster scan instead of a helical scan it was likely a bit less good at finding targets, taking longer for scan cycles to complete.
Gunnery range is around 400 yards right?The minimum range for each system would be tied to pulse width and receiver recovery time. I have no data for the APG-1/2, but the data I can find for the SCR-720 indicates a minimum range of either 100 or 150 yards.
I'll take a look at that...I ran across a couple of online sources that tied the APG-1/2 to the P-61, and that allowed me to find more references in print. The best was that DTIC document I quoted earlier, Military Airborne Radar Systems, but several other DTIC docs helped also.
Most of the technical information I found on the APG-1 / 2 was in the MIT Radiation Laboratory Series of books. I have an original 1947 first edition of this 28 volume set. And you really had to dig to find it, there is not, for example, a section dedicated to them. Rather there are sections on different scan types, antenna designs, display types, etc, and if you dig deep in each of those they reference specifics of the SCR-720 and the APG-1/2, as well as other similar radars. Looking them up in the indexes or searching them by key word will yield a few pages, reading the text will show more related info.
You can find the Rad Lab series online in PDF from several sources, such as here: https://www.jlab.org/ir/MITSeries.html But as I said, you have to dig in those to find the info.
The design of an antenna optimized for helical scan and the machinery to move it was quite different from raster scan systems. Besides, you can generally fit a larger diameter raster dish in the same size radome, giving it an advantage in gain, and hence detection range. An antenna designed to do both probably wouldn't do either very well.I'm surprised you couldn't just use a raster-scan for search and the combination of conic/raster for target-tracking.
Auto-track means blind-shooting or lock-on right?
Can you put those images up?
What kind of platform issues?
So the conical scan provides some kind of triangulation function (from what I vaguely remember as the beam spins round and round, it produces two lobes as it does) and more precision while the raster function basically swings left and right?
How long would it take in comparison. To do a 360-degree scan on the SCR-720 it 6 revolutions every second, or 2160 degrees per second.
I'm surprised you couldn't just use a raster-scan for search and the combination of conic/raster for target-tracking.
Later radars (as in jet interceptors) used a nodding (raster scan) antenna with a feedhorn that could rotate (nutate), giving the beam a conical effect when in lock-on mode that made for accurate tracking and a secure lock.
That nutating beam was what generated the distinctive "spinscan" sound in the threat warning receiver heard just before an AAM blew your tail off.
UnderstoodYes, in Auto Track you are locked on the target.
Oh, I thought you had the pictures with you...I'll have to find them again, I did not keep them.
So the limitations are the aircraft's structure reflecting back into the radar, and the terrain providing the aircraft is low to the ground and within the resolution cell?When looking too far to the side or too far down (assuming your antenna is bottom mounted) while radiating you start to get a lot of RF energy (often from side lobes of the antenna) reflected back into the radar from the structure of the aircraft.
I thought you wanted to reduce the errors?The conical scan will help produce the elevation and azimuth errors by either amplitude changes or phase changes, depending on the system design. I am pretty sure the APG-1/2 used amplitude changes.
Now that makes sense to meThink of it this way, the feed of the antenna is intentionally mechanically skewed, so the beam points off center slightly. Now the feed is spun on its central axis, so this skewed beam "wobbles" around the center of the antennas pointing axis. If you compare the signal return amplitude when the scan is at the top and bottom of the wobble you can determine if the target is up or down in relationship to the scan axis. The same technique is applied to azimuth.
That I get, I said what I said because the palmer-scan was better for holding a lock, while the raster scan was faster for going left-right/up-down.The Raster scan simply scans right and left and up and down.
I would not have thought the antenna would have carried that much inertia... learn something new everydayI have no idea the exact volume scan rates of the APG-1/2, the texts I have seen only indicate it is slower than the SCR-720 scan rate. And since it uses a raster, instead of a helical, I can understand that, to do a raster you have to stop and change directions at each edge instead of just continuing the scan around.
Meaning it's based on the device that swivels the antenna and rotates it? And I'm guessing the feed-horn is not designed to not rotate round and round, so it wouldn't be designed to simply center itself so it would be able to simply point in whatever direction the swivel is aimed so it just goes left, right, left, right, left, right, or left, right, up, left-right, up, left, right, up, left right, down... and so on?The problem is that skewed feed and the fact it is mechanically derived.
Imagine a plate sitting on a table. That is your antenna dish. Now imagine there's a small depression in the exact center of the plate in which the point of a tall slender top is spinning. Gyroscopic rigidity in space keeps the top perpendicular to the plate. That is your rotating feedhorn. Now imagine you can suspend the laws of physics enough to pick up this plate/spinning top assembly and bolt it into an articulated gimbal structure on the front end of your aircraft. This gimbal has powerful little motors that drive the dish left-right-up-a-notch, left-right-up-a-notch, and so forth until it reaches the upper gimbal limit, then repeats the process down to the lower limit and back to level. Since a feedhorn isn't as symmetrical as a top, the beam it projects from the dish at any point in its rotation is not symmetrical around the central axis of the dish. Rotation of the feedhorn causes this asymmetrical beam to form a very slender cone of signal centered on the axis of the dish, strongest on axis and weaker towards the edges. This oprovides the signal strength comparisons that generate the "pointing error" signals used to drive the antenna to put its axis "on target". Once the antenna is "on target", the azimuth and elevation are known and return time provides range.Meaning it's based on the device that swivels the antenna and rotates it? And I'm guessing the feed-horn is not designed to not rotate round and round, so it wouldn't be designed to simply center itself so it would be able to simply point in whatever direction the swivel is aimed so it just goes left, right, left, right, left, right, or left, right, up, left-right, up, left, right, up, left right, down... and so on?
So the limitations are the aircraft's structure reflecting back into the radar, and the terrain providing the aircraft is low to the ground and within the resolution cell?
I thought you wanted to reduce the errors?
That I get, I said what I said because the palmer-scan was better for holding a lock, while the raster scan was faster for going left-right/up-down.
I would not have thought the antenna would have carried that much inertia... learn something new everyday
Meaning it's based on the device that swivels the antenna and rotates it? And I'm guessing the feed-horn is not designed to not rotate round and round, so it wouldn't be designed to simply center itself so it would be able to simply point in whatever direction the swivel is aimed so it just goes left, right, left, right, left, right, or left, right, up, left-right, up, left, right, up, left right, down... and so on?