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The RAF used it to some effect it seemed...Blind fire tail guns such as "Village Inn" tail radar used on the Lancaster would I think have not been a success.
Now that's interesting!Little known is that the Germans deployed a small number of FuG 211 and FuG 215 blind fire radars in combat in 1942.
Wait... they were considered 4-engined bombers not theirs to shoot down? Are you sure you didn't get that backwards?The reason they were not deployed in greater numbers is likely because of the IFF (Identification Friend or Foe) problem which confounded everyone and that they get caught up in the frequency changes needed in 1943 to overcome windows. You had to fly up close and get a visual. For the Nachtjagdt the rules were if it had 4 engines its not ours so shoot it down.
So the antennae worked together to amplify each other and in doing so, increased the ability to accurately track the direction of the target?Above is a picture of the early FuG 202C1 Lichtenstein radar mounted in a Ju 88C. It operated at 490Mhz (60cm)
The small aerial in front of the 16 part (4 by 4) array is the dipole from which the signal radiates, the rear antenna is the 'reflector' which is placed 1/4 wavelength away. it reflects the signal forward and is spaced such a way that the reflection constructively interferes with the dipole to increase directionality. Further forward directionality is promoted by the array interference pattern.
This vaguely sounds like a phased-array radar...By using a rotating switch wave delays were switched in to the dipoles steer the beam alternately left/right then up/down.
The azumuth/elevation layout is bizarre: They are exactly the opposite of how I would lay them. The elevation scope looks more like it'd display azimuth and the azimuth looks like an elevation scope.This is what the radar operator saw; Below are the radar traces.
The scope on the left is a j scope and shows the range of the target aircraft around its circumference. It is somewhat superfluous in that the other scopes also contain range information. The scope in the middle shows whether the target is to the left or right (in this case the right return is heaviest so the target is to the right) and the scope in the right shows if the target is high or low, in this case high. The big pulse at the end is the ground return.
So we produced a more focused beam?The narrow beam of allied microwave radar however made it less susceptible of receiving jamming energy.
So, while the radar wasn't as aesthetically pleasing it was closer to a phased array than what we had?If the Germans had of replaced their 60cm 1.5kW transmitter with a 15cm 5kw transmitter (which they had by way of the Telefunken LD7 disk triode) and used a more complicated switch pattern 4 left.right and 4 up down) they would have had a phased array radar that could have fitted in a dome.
You very accurately identified my exact problem: I know almost nothing about electronics and am often in a position where I've made guesses, generalities based on what others have said.You need to brush up on your basic electronics, especially wave propagation. It can't be explained simply and unconfusingly without a lot of illustrations, which I can't do on this phone.
No, you got it backwards. Luftwaffe had no four engine bombers likely to be seen in the night skies over the Reich. (FW-200 was a maritime patrol craft.) Ergo, if it's got four engines, it's a bad guy; shoot him down!Wait... they were considered 4-engined bombers not theirs to shoot down? Are you sure you didn't get that backwards?
No such luck. There's no quick and easy path to electronics. I would suggest getting a beginning text book for an electronics technician course. STAY AWAY FROM ENGINEERING TEXTS! I think there is some form of "Basic Electronics for Dummies" on the market. Try "Volts for Dolts".I have no formal education in the subject: I'm curious if you have any ideas where to start. Is there an electronics and wave propagation for dummies somewhere? And if so, how did I miss it all these years
Worth a shot...No such luck.
That's a good one... Volts for Dolts... and it's very fitting with my limited knowledge in this case.I would suggest getting a beginning text book for an electronics technician course. STAY AWAY FROM ENGINEERING TEXTS! I think there is some form of "Basic Electronics for Dummies" on the market. Try "Volts for Dolts".
Wait... there's such a class at the local community college.You're going to need DC and AC theory, resistance, capacitance, and inductance, impedance, semiconductor theory, amplifiers, oscillators, receiver theory, transmitter theory, antenna and transmission line theory, cathode ray tubes, transducers etc, etc etc.
Wow...It took me thirty-four weeks of intensive (morning, afternoon and night) classroom and laboratory instruction, so don't expect rapid miracles.
Little known is that the Germans deployed a small number of FuG 211 and FuG 215 blind fire radars in combat in 1942. These were known as "Pauke A" and about 10 were produced and trialed in combat. These had an accuracy of 0.5 degrees within +/-10 degrees of forward. The reason they were not deployed in greater numbers is likely because of the IFF (Identification Friend or Foe) problem which confounded everyone and that they get caught up in the frequency changes needed in 1943 to overcome windows. You had to fly up close and get a visual. For the Nachtjagdt the rules were if it had 4 engines its not ours so shoot it down. Proper airborne IFF didn't reach the Luftwaffe but for a few "Neuling" equipped Me 262.
Wait... they were considered 4-engined bombers not theirs to shoot down? Are you sure you didn't get that backwards?
So the antennae worked together to amplify each other and in doing so, increased the ability to accurately track the direction of the target?
This vaguely sounds like a phased-array radar...
The azumuth/elevation layout is bizarre: They are exactly the opposite of how I would lay them. The elevation scope looks more like it'd display azimuth and the azimuth looks like an elevation scope.
As for azimuth: The big blip is the target, correct?
As for the elevation: The smaller blip is target, the bigger one is the ground, just to be clear?
So we produced a more focused beam?
So, while the radar wasn't as aesthetically pleasing it was closer to a phased array than what we had?
Oh, okay... so if it's got four engines, blow it up?"For the Nachtjagdt the rules were if it had 4 engines its not ours so shoot it down".
Yes it does Germany didn't have four engine planes operating at night.Oh, okay... so if it's got four engines, blow it up? That makes lots of sense...
Okay, I understand.Look at that picture and for a moment forget that there are 16 groups of 2, just consider each 2 element pair.
That's impressive to have developed radar technology such a long time back!What is being described is a basic 2 element Yagi-Uda antenna. It was documented and identified as a particular function in 1926 in Japan.
Okay, but, at the risk of sounding silly, why was it called parasitic?The back element is parasitic, not active, the front element is driven, and active.
So the back element ensures that the energy transmitting rearwards is now going just forward, not in all directions with around twice the energy going forward?WAY oversimplified here. The energy is radiated from the front element of the pair. Some of the energy goes forward, some to the sides, and some of the energy goes back towards the other element. The energy going back gets reflected off that back element, thus the name for that element being a "reflector". That reflected energy goes forward and is added to the energy of the driven element.
Antenna gain is basically a measure of the antenna's electrical efficiency, and the ability to produce an energy emission that is not omnidirectional, but instead going in a specific direction?This configuration produces moderate gain and directivity in the forward direction, away from the reflector and towards the driven element.
So more energy is put on target, and more accuracy can be produced in the process?But there are 16 sets of 2 elements. Each doubling of elements (2, 4, 8, 16) produces near twice as much gain (not quite double, roughly about 2.7 - 2.8 dB increase on average) and about half the beamwidth.
Okay. So, it's more a progenitor?It is the basis for phased array, but it is not what we normally call phased array.
The term of phase relationship is something that I'm starting to learn, it seems to mean one of the followingThis is basically an adaptation of the lobe switching technique. By controlling the phase relationship of the energy fed to each set of 8 Yagis you can bend or steer the beam. There are 4 sets of 8, 2 sets of 8 in each plane.
So for the purposes of elevation the 16 sets are divided in two halves, top 8 and bottom 8. For the purposes of azimuth the 16 sets are divided in two halves, right 8 and left 8.
To steer the beam up slightly you slightly delay in phase the feed (energy getting to and from) to the top 8 in reference to the bottom 8. You make the signal arrive to the top 8 a little bit later in time.
The antenna physically was extended out/retracted in?Often this is done by simply using slightly longer feedlines to the delayed set.
I never used a ham radio... I really should have at least bothered to learn morse code (I know S = ... O = ---)The basics of this theory was described in papers going back to the mid 1920's, and even in ham radio books by the late 1930's.
Okay, so the small blip is the target, and the main bang is basically an artifact from the radar itself?
That makes sense...For some radars that is true. The use of microwave frequencies allowed higher gain for a given size of antenna, higher gain means smaller beamwidths, more concentrated power.
Were there any advantages to them?However we also had lower frequency systems with wider beamwidths, similar to the one described.
OkayNo.
First, while the basic concept of the system is similar to Phased Array, using phase relationship to steer a beam, it is not generally called phased array in this application. Not wrong to call it so, just not what is generally meant by the term.
Yes, I meant the alliesSecond, "we" (assuming you mean Allies) used the same techniques, although typically not on aircraft. And so did the Japanese, and I think the Russians.
That's impressive to have developed radar technology such a long time back!
Okay, but, at the risk of sounding silly, why was it called parasitic?
So the back element ensures that the energy transmitting rearwards is now going just forward, not in all directions with around twice the energy going forward?
Antenna gain is basically a measure of the antenna's electrical efficiency, and the ability to produce an energy emission that is not omnidirectional, but instead going in a specific direction?
So more energy is put on target, and more accuracy can be produced in the process?
Okay. So, it's more a progenitor?
The antenna physically was extended out/retracted in?
Okay, so the small blip is the target, and the main bang is basically an artifact from the radar itself?
Were there any advantages to them?
Oh, okayThe Yagi-Uda antenna was not designed as a radar technology, it was just another development in the road of radio frequency systems and devices.
That's quite fascinating.Technologies that apply to your cell phone antenna also apply to radar, or in the case of the Yagi antenna a technology that applied to communications radio applied quite well to radar.
OkayIt is not active, i.e. no energy is directly applied to that element. It draws power off of, away from, the active, or driven, elements in the antenna design.
OkayLets not say twice as much energy going forward, lets just say it increases the amount of energy in a specific desired direction.
That makes enough senseThink of it this way, you have a lightbulb in the middle of a room. The light goes everyplace more or less evenly. Now put a mirror on one side of the light bulb. All the light that goes in the direction of the mirror is reflected, and now goes in the opposite direction, adding to the light on the opposite side of the bulb from the mirror.
UnderstoodI would drop the efficiency part of that statement, and simply say gain is the ability to produce energy inn a desired direction, the more directional the beam the more gain the antenna will have, all other things being equal.
Useful thing to have!Higher gain means a tighter beam width. Tighter beam widths mean more directional accuracy is possible. But higher gain also means more radiated power for the same amount of transmitter peak power, and it means more receiver sensitivity in a specific direction. All meaning you can track targets further away.
Okay...Sure, you could say that. It is a core concept that would eventually allow what we call phased array systems today.
So the electrical wiring is stretched or pulled in?No, the antenna was not extended, the feedline carrying the energy to the antenna was lengthened or shortened.
You have a transmitter and two antennas. Each antenna is physically 4 meters away from the transmitter, but each has 5 meters of cable connecting the transmitter to the antenna. These two antennas are fed in phase, the transmitted energy takes the same time to go from the transmitter to each antenna. Now lengthen the cable going to only one antenna to 6 meters, and leave the other 5 meters long.
The radio energy will take longer to get from the transmitter to the second antenna, the one fed with a 6 meter cable, than it will take to get form the transmitter to the first antenna, the one fed with a 5 meter cable. The energy will arrive at the second antenna delayed.
OkayYes.
I've heard that somewhere before...However, today lower frequency radars are making a comeback. Current Stealth Technology is not as affective against lower frequencies.
So the electrical wiring is stretched or pulled in?
I've heard that somewhere before...
That's a nutating-scan right?AN/APG-4: Was a radar configured as a 500lb bomb used as an air intercept radar of Corsairs and Hellcats.
Do you have anymore details on this event?British efforts for blind fire radar died with the death of Arthur Ernest Downing who was shot down in a friendly fire incident while developing chaff resistance for the planed for tracking capable AI Mk.IX in 1941.
So basically the rotation either would activate different circuits or coil up the line increasing or decreasing feed line length?By using a rotating switch wave delays were switched in to the dipoles steer the beam alternately left/right then up/down.
I didn't know toss-bombing even existed in WWII, let alone a proposal to feed automated signals from the radar straight to the autopilot (which is something we'd see years later)These latter radars injected the firing directions into either the EZ42 or EZ45 gyro 'reflector sight' which had been modified to take inputs from Toss bombing computers or the blind fire computer (Elfe) to deflect the cross hairs appropriately. It was hope to put the signals straight to the auto pilot.
Another member (I posted a reply to him too for the same reason, but it will also be a reference as well) mentioned rotating switch relays...The total feedline length is lengthened and shortened in various ways.
An example might be coaxial cable and switches. The coaxial cable is the feedline.
So you basically divert power off at 5 meters, or at 6?In the previous example, 2 antennas 4 meters from the transmitter each fed with 5 meters of feedline. I have a 5 meter section of coax going to each antenna. And at one end of each feedline I have a coaxial switch that allows me to select an additional meter of coax in the path or to bypass that meter of coax.
Why if I may ask?While lower freqs are sometimes good for acquisition radars they are
They attempted stealth back in the 1940's? Do you mean the XB-35?This is not a new concept or issue. It has been known from the very earliest days of intentional radar cross section control. The general issue and physics involved are well documented in related papers going back to the 1940's.
Honestly, it'd be nice if news was more comprehensive...But occasionally some news report, magazine article, etc, pops up making it seem like this is a new finding, and that stealth technology is now "dead" or "useless". This revelation is simply not true, but can't really be explained in a 60 second sound bite, so most people don't understand.
Makes sense...Since Stealth became an acknowledged thing there has been a resurgence of lower frequency radar, almost certainly mostly driven by concerns for defeating stealth.
The fact that research papers addressed theories of radar cross section control doesn't mean that actual hardware attempts to achieve it were made back then. Complete invisibility as we think of stealth today was at that time a "holy grail", unachievable with the technology at their disposal. There was still tactical advantage to be had by making an aircraft less noticable on radar, allowing it to get much closer to its target before being detected. "New radar contact, 12 o'clock high, five miles, closing, 900 knots!"They attempted stealth back in the 1940's? Do you mean the XB-35?
So you basically divert power off at 5 meters, or at 6?
Why if I may ask?
They attempted stealth back in the 1940's? Do you mean the XB-35?
Second, "we" (assuming you mean Allies) used the same techniques, although typically not on aircraft. And so did the Japanese, and I think the Russians. There is no doubt, however, that the Germans used it in greater numbers and to greater affect.
It bothered me when I wrote this that while I knew the Allies had used such techniques I could not think of the specific system or application. Turns out that several radars used this technique in some form or another.
A prime example of this would be the SCR-545A radar. In fact it used an almost identical arrangement to the Lichtenstein radars, 16 half wave dipoles in 4 groups to allow lobe switching by phase shift in the feed lines. This radar, however, used a large reflective surface behind the fed elements, instead of parasitic elements. The SCR-545 was a ground based radar, so fewer weight constraints allowed for the large reflector.
An interesting fact I stumbled on was that the Army used modified SCR-545s to simulate Wurzburg and Giant Wurzburg radars for ESM training / testing purposes. I have not yet found data on specifically how the -545 was modified to fill this application.
T!
That's fascinatingIt bothered me when I wrote this that while I knew the Allies had used such techniques I could not think of the specific system or application. Turns out that several radars used this technique in some form or another.
A prime example of this would be the SCR-545A radar.
Or drag...In fact it used an almost identical arrangement to the Lichtenstein radars, 16 half wave dipoles in 4 groups to allow lobe switching by phase shift in the feed lines. This radar, however, used a large reflective surface behind the fed elements, instead of parasitic elements. The SCR-545 was a ground based radar, so fewer weight constraints allowed for the large reflector.
Makes enough sense...An interesting fact I stumbled on was that the Army used modified SCR-545s to simulate Wurzburg and Giant Wurzburg radars for ESM training / testing purposes.
That would be around 6.57 yards at 400 yards?They used lobe switching on an expermintal Seetakt radar to get 0.1 degree accuracy in 1934
Both sides used lobe switching and conical scan. The Germans were first to deploy conical scan in Würzburg C around Feb 1941 when it was became opperational with FLAK troops. They used lobe switching on an expermintal Seetakt radar to get 0.1 degree accuracy in 1934 but held of deployment till about 1941 because it impacted range and they eventually settled on a system that lobbed the receiving side only to avoid disclosing the switching pattern and because it didn't broaden the beam which caused peripheral targets to be taken in. There was also a long range development of the Freya radar called Wassermann that consisted of stacked Freya radars that used genuine phased array techniques for height finding. An even longer ranged radar called Mammut (mammoth, code name billboard by the British) that used phased array techniques to scan up to 58 degrees to either side and behind. They were aware of the technique. They didn't use switched delays but infinitely variable taped delays to adjust the phase. Mid war Freya radars had lobe switching not only to more precisely locate the enemy but to precisely guide the night fighter within a degree or so of the target.
The US Army had lobe switching on its SCR~268 and the USN on it's early fire control radars.