Konigstiger205
Staff Sergeant
Adler is right...there is a huge difference between the BoB and the bombing campaign of Germany's cities...
Parachute killings
- Thread starter The Basket
- Start date
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That was not my point...
Soundbreaker Welch?
Tech Sergeant
Well, I was saying that the German civilians were more dangerous to downed Allied airmen than British civilians were to downed Axis airmen, even though both of them may not apreciate an enemy pilot in their wheatfield, and both probably had grudges agains't him. And the BOB was an attack on all of England.
A thread like this gets all kinds of thoughts going. I probably shouldn't touch it, but...
Pete Peterson was the pilot who pecked at the German pilot. Obie O'Brian has told me
that there were a few pilots that wouldn't of thought twice doing this, but didn't say
he knoew anyone that did.
Did it happen...of course. I'm sure most rational pilots wouldn't do this unless something triggered
a mental lapse and rage ensued.
Alot of finger pointing going on that I have no idea on, but my Wife's a Belarussian and
on my visits to her home country I've seen a number of monuments to the atrocities done
to the Russian Civilians by the German SS Squads that no wonder they became hated
by atleast the Belorussians. I'd say more German Pilots were killed by Civilians than the VVS
shooting them in their chutes.
No wonder the Russians did what they did to the German towns and people. Eye for an
eye..Tooth for a tooth. That's what it was. After this they thought all German's were
evil...they didn't realize that a Mad Man was teaching and leading them.
This link is to the most famous of the monuments. Let me tell you it was a somber place.
Where every home stood there is a stone column with a bell at
the top. One would ring here, then a min later another would ring across the field.
I had chills up my spine, my heart sank and tears were welling up in my eyes. Alot
of thoughts ran through my mind...the worst one is knowing that somewhere this
was happening now and more would come about in the future.
There always will be a mad man somewhere on Earth.
"Khatyn" - The tragedy of Khatyn
Pete Peterson was the pilot who pecked at the German pilot. Obie O'Brian has told me
that there were a few pilots that wouldn't of thought twice doing this, but didn't say
he knoew anyone that did.
Did it happen...of course. I'm sure most rational pilots wouldn't do this unless something triggered
a mental lapse and rage ensued.
Alot of finger pointing going on that I have no idea on, but my Wife's a Belarussian and
on my visits to her home country I've seen a number of monuments to the atrocities done
to the Russian Civilians by the German SS Squads that no wonder they became hated
by atleast the Belorussians. I'd say more German Pilots were killed by Civilians than the VVS
shooting them in their chutes.
No wonder the Russians did what they did to the German towns and people. Eye for an
eye..Tooth for a tooth. That's what it was. After this they thought all German's were
evil...they didn't realize that a Mad Man was teaching and leading them.
This link is to the most famous of the monuments. Let me tell you it was a somber place.
Where every home stood there is a stone column with a bell at
the top. One would ring here, then a min later another would ring across the field.
I had chills up my spine, my heart sank and tears were welling up in my eyes. Alot
of thoughts ran through my mind...the worst one is knowing that somewhere this
was happening now and more would come about in the future.
There always will be a mad man somewhere on Earth.
"Khatyn" - The tragedy of Khatyn
Konigstiger205
Staff Sergeant
That is true unfortunately mad_max but its up to us to never allow a mad man to gain power as for the Germans there where victims of their own regime....my country experienced communism for more than 50 years and there's not much of a difference between a nazi regime and a soviet one...so like I said its up to us to never allow anything like this to happen...
Aussie1001
Staff Sergeant
That is a very sad story....
There are two ways to look at this i believe the view point of a computer or the view point of a human...
Computer- dont give a dam about him but if i kill him now he doesn't come back up tomorrow to have a go at me againe.....
Human- Better not if i don't he might encourage his mates not to as well...
And i would sure hate to be in his position if i decied to do it....
this is how i see it anyhow....
There are two ways to look at this i believe the view point of a computer or the view point of a human...
Computer- dont give a dam about him but if i kill him now he doesn't come back up tomorrow to have a go at me againe.....
Human- Better not if i don't he might encourage his mates not to as well...
And i would sure hate to be in his position if i decied to do it....
this is how i see it anyhow....
Soundbreaker Welch?
Tech Sergeant
Well Aussie, you have summed up the Golden Rule.
If you shot a German in the chute, his buddy might come back and shoot your buddy in the chute, or you.
If you shot a German in the chute, his buddy might come back and shoot your buddy in the chute, or you.
rogthedodge
Airman 1st Class
- 155
- May 9, 2007
A couple of points - cross racial conflicts are typically more brutal / less 'honourable' than those within the same racial groups; hence allies Japan, germany Russia being more brutal than allies germany (largely an Anglo-Saxon war)
Certainly the Poles/Czechs saw no reason not to shoot at chutes but decency aside it was pointed out to them that in the BoB downed pilots were going to be captured anyway.
On civilians killing pilots it certainly happened - I've read of RAF pilots being rescued from mobs by passing Luftwaffe personnel. Many however were killed by civilians on landing.
It certainly happened in the UK too but being more densely populated downed LW aircrew were more likely to fall into official hands before harm could come to them. Not sure I'd rely on the fair-play of local Home Guard units though.
Certainly the Poles/Czechs saw no reason not to shoot at chutes but decency aside it was pointed out to them that in the BoB downed pilots were going to be captured anyway.
On civilians killing pilots it certainly happened - I've read of RAF pilots being rescued from mobs by passing Luftwaffe personnel. Many however were killed by civilians on landing.
It certainly happened in the UK too but being more densely populated downed LW aircrew were more likely to fall into official hands before harm could come to them. Not sure I'd rely on the fair-play of local Home Guard units though.
Soundbreaker Welch?
Tech Sergeant
Gaw, you bloody well bombed my barn!
rogthedodge
Airman 1st Class
- 155
- May 9, 2007
Put me in mind of a story and old boy told me when I kid:
LW plane crash land on the hills of North Wales on a dark night miles from anywhere and the pilot is confronted by a local Home Guard soldier.
HG soldier is shouting at him in Welsh*, poor LW guy hasn't a clue and continues walking forwards as Welshman points rifle, works the bolt etc.
God knows what the LW guy must have thought. AFAIK no blood was spilt.
* unlike any language you've ever heard, it's 000's of years old. Back then many 'ordinary' N Walians had little English.
LW plane crash land on the hills of North Wales on a dark night miles from anywhere and the pilot is confronted by a local Home Guard soldier.
HG soldier is shouting at him in Welsh*, poor LW guy hasn't a clue and continues walking forwards as Welshman points rifle, works the bolt etc.
God knows what the LW guy must have thought. AFAIK no blood was spilt.
* unlike any language you've ever heard, it's 000's of years old. Back then many 'ordinary' N Walians had little English.
TenGunTerror
Airman
I read in the same book (I think it was that book) that the AAA gunners would shootdown parachuting airmen much to the dismay of the citizens. Back to the 'Chute Shooting' though, pilots didn't normally do this because it was cowardly and the pilot was no longer a threat so why bother?
drgondog
Major
Again, sorces for your comments? It is one thing to extract from a personalWWII anecdotal story, another to document incident and investigation.
BTW - one of my uncles was shot and killed at Nijmegan by German soldiees while hanging in a tree - and another was part of an Ranger execution event at Dachau where the dumb young German guards were still hanging around when the 5th Rangers liberated Dachau.
It happened but stories and verified incidents are different discussions.
Butters
Senior Airman
This is from Tom Blackburn's, "The Jolly Rogers"*
Page 240: "Rog cold-bloodedly closed to within 100 yards and fired all his guns into the Zeke's wing root and engine. The Zeke's canopy slid back and the pilot hurtled into the slipstream just before the plane caught fire. Rog strafed the chute, but his shots probably only bracketed it."
Page 247-248: "As the gray fog evaporated, I spotted the recently blossomed parachute. I swung back to finish off the Japanese pilot; if I didn't, I reasoned, he probably would be up to meet us the next day -- smarter, and look for me. Unbelievably the harness was empty. A closer look at the dangling straps revealed that they had burned through. At that moment, it was not at all pleasant to think about the Japanese pilot's 18,000-foot unarrested dirve to the surface."
* Pocket Books paperback ISBN 0-671-69493-6
JL
Page 240: "Rog cold-bloodedly closed to within 100 yards and fired all his guns into the Zeke's wing root and engine. The Zeke's canopy slid back and the pilot hurtled into the slipstream just before the plane caught fire. Rog strafed the chute, but his shots probably only bracketed it."
Page 247-248: "As the gray fog evaporated, I spotted the recently blossomed parachute. I swung back to finish off the Japanese pilot; if I didn't, I reasoned, he probably would be up to meet us the next day -- smarter, and look for me. Unbelievably the harness was empty. A closer look at the dangling straps revealed that they had burned through. At that moment, it was not at all pleasant to think about the Japanese pilot's 18,000-foot unarrested dirve to the surface."
* Pocket Books paperback ISBN 0-671-69493-6
JL
drgondog
Major
I wasn't saying it didn't happen - what I did say is that the evidence is anecdotal so, in absence of any official investigation/reports, it is impossible to obtain either the magnitude or the patterns...
You made very specific allegations and comments that you haven't cited references for - such as "USAF - Yes there was a couple groups that unofficially encouraged shooting German pilots, who flew jets, in their parachutes."
Sources???
Most USAAF pilots understood there were a lot more B-17 and B-24 crews drifting around as easy targets than LW pilots so nobody was 'encouraging' their squadrons to shoot guys in chutes. I suspect if word of that practice 'drifted around' that 8th AF Command would come down on those Group CO's like a ton of bricks.
The second major issue of an 'unofficial policy' like that is the POW 'problem' if you start banging away at LW pilots in chutes.
Understand that I KNOW it happened on both sides - what I am pulling the 'BS Flag' on is your comment that USAF had a policy to shoot LW pilots in chutes... even limited to 'one or two groups'
EDIT - this Last comment was directed to Hunter368 - not to Butter
If you have evidence to the contrary I really would like to see it.
Last edited:
Butters
Senior Airman
Are you talking to me? in case you haven't noticed, the above is the only post I made on the subject. As for allegations, specific or otherwise, the only one I'm making is that you seem to be imagining things.
Talk about 'BS flags'...
JL
Talk about 'BS flags'...
JL
drgondog
Major
Butters - you are right. I was referring to Hunter368 remarks and his anecdotal references and you jumped in with another anecdotal comment.
My BS flag was directed to Hunter but you are welcome to pick it up.