Completeaerogeek
Airman
- 12
- Sep 13, 2016
I realise these are early post WWII aircraft but I think this may be informative.
There is much misinformation and misplaced bias on the internet about comparisons between these two aircraft. Most are easily disproven by basic physics, aircraft specifications, and actual aircraft performance tests. A lot of information came to light post the USSR (i.e. the complete debunking of the 12:1 kill ratio of the USAF- revised to just 2:1 from official Soviet 'Quartermaster' Bureau figures and squadron records) and also in newly discovered archives. When it comes to commentary and data- i will take data every time -(an occupational of being a former military aviator and more recently a university lecturer teaching BSc Aerodynamics and Systems to aspiring pilots)
Bias about the Meteor Mk 8's performance is often based on the artificially poor performance of the RAAF's 77SQN F8s in Korea against the MiG 15.
In reality, a major part of the wartime air-to-air combat disparity is that the Aussies from 77 SQN had been flying exclusively ground attack in CAC built P-51 (F-51 by then) Mustang since their arrival, and not only had to convert onto a jet (a completely different way of flying) but had to train in bomber escort and how to use a Meteor's strengths in air combat, a task that would take a normal peacetime squadron probably a year of training. It's a bit like stepping out of an A-10A and into and F-35 and expected to fight it effectively within a very short period.
A series of trials between an F8 and an F-86A that took place at Iwakuni in May 1951 showed the Meteors obvious lesser speed (Mach 0.82 at altitude) but maximum speed is only ever used for attach or escape manoeuvres so it is not a useful as it sounds. Following the merge, The F8 proved that it could outturn and outclimb the F-86 allowing it to re-engage and could in many respects, dictate the combat once a slashing attack was avoided.
WGCDR Bill Simmons (RAAF) noted that he was very disappointed in the lack of training they received about the F8s strengths. He said "Had we been operating at its optimum height of 20,000', below the contrail layer, (USAF Sabres often operated at 25-30,000' for the same reason) the attack could be detected (MiG 15s with their higher ceiling were well known for leaving distinctive contrails) and they could have used the F8's superior zoom climb to turn into the enemy and either defeat the attack or draw them in to a turning fight where the Meteor was far superior.
After some difficulty and a few victories over MiGs, 77SQN RAAF while struggling to learn how best to fly and fight the F8, 77SQN was switched to ground attack where they performed extremely well.
The truth is that the Meteor F8 was a much more capable fighter than it has been given credit for. It was not that much slower than the MiG 15 if we use 'peak' figures. The 585mph often quoted for the Meteor is a little misleading, (people mix low altitude mph vs TAS vs Mach number) as this was at sea level in dense, thick air. In fact an earlier F4 actually held the world speed record of 616mph at sea level in 1945. (At the same altitude, captured German performance charts showed the Me 262 could manage just 490mph)
The F8 was capable of Mach 0.82-84 at altitude with a VNE of 0.89. For a first generation jet built without the benefit of the German high speed wind tunnel research captured after the war, this was pretty impressive
Despite its swept wing, the MCrit of the MiG was 0.82–0.85 and the Meteor Mach 0.82-not a big difference. The MiG was transonically unstable in a dive (as many pilots including Chuck Yeager) found to their discomfort or ultimate cost, and oilots were warned not at attempt to approach its VNE, so its primary escape manouevre could be terminal.
The MiGs first generation swept wing design (with its less than optimal aerofoil profile) had to be ameliorated by large wing fences to prevent excessive spanwise airflow and it would experience tip stall and depart in a tight turn. Soviet squadron records show that many 'spinning' MiG 15s that were claimed as victories by eager USAF pilots actually recovered and returned to base, chastened but unharmed.
The MiG 15 typically used it's speed and altitude advantage (thanks to its copied British Nene engine) in common slashing attacks and avoided turning fights (unless piloted by experienced Russian pilots) but if a Meteor saw it first and turned aggressively into the merge, the MiG would have no hope in a turning fight, as the Meteor had a wing loading of 44.9 lb/sq ft compared to 60.7 lb/sq ft with an almost identical thrust to weight ratio.
Again, the MiG did have a superior ceiling and rate of climb to the Sabre and Meteor thanks to its VK1 (copied British Nene) engine but that only gets you so far.
The Meteor had better fighter armament in the 4 Hispano 20mm with a higher muzzle velocity (880m/s vs 660 m/s for the NR 23 giving a much flatter trajectory and so better accuracy (the MiG was designed with heavier armament for shooting down bombers).
RAAF 77SQN Meteor scoring a rare victory over MiG 15.
In short, a properly trained F8 pilot with good tactics and situational awareness and using the strengths of his aircraft, would have a very good chance of dispatching a MiG 15.
BTW if you are interested in more carefully researched, sourced and fact-based articles, find me on Quora as Completeaerogeek. (I have several hundred answers/articles and over 7M views and counting) I am also an Editor in Aviation/Aerospace on Wikipedia. Cheers CAG - MSc Tech (AV) MRAeS AIAA
There is much misinformation and misplaced bias on the internet about comparisons between these two aircraft. Most are easily disproven by basic physics, aircraft specifications, and actual aircraft performance tests. A lot of information came to light post the USSR (i.e. the complete debunking of the 12:1 kill ratio of the USAF- revised to just 2:1 from official Soviet 'Quartermaster' Bureau figures and squadron records) and also in newly discovered archives. When it comes to commentary and data- i will take data every time -(an occupational of being a former military aviator and more recently a university lecturer teaching BSc Aerodynamics and Systems to aspiring pilots)
Bias about the Meteor Mk 8's performance is often based on the artificially poor performance of the RAAF's 77SQN F8s in Korea against the MiG 15.
In reality, a major part of the wartime air-to-air combat disparity is that the Aussies from 77 SQN had been flying exclusively ground attack in CAC built P-51 (F-51 by then) Mustang since their arrival, and not only had to convert onto a jet (a completely different way of flying) but had to train in bomber escort and how to use a Meteor's strengths in air combat, a task that would take a normal peacetime squadron probably a year of training. It's a bit like stepping out of an A-10A and into and F-35 and expected to fight it effectively within a very short period.
A series of trials between an F8 and an F-86A that took place at Iwakuni in May 1951 showed the Meteors obvious lesser speed (Mach 0.82 at altitude) but maximum speed is only ever used for attach or escape manoeuvres so it is not a useful as it sounds. Following the merge, The F8 proved that it could outturn and outclimb the F-86 allowing it to re-engage and could in many respects, dictate the combat once a slashing attack was avoided.
WGCDR Bill Simmons (RAAF) noted that he was very disappointed in the lack of training they received about the F8s strengths. He said "Had we been operating at its optimum height of 20,000', below the contrail layer, (USAF Sabres often operated at 25-30,000' for the same reason) the attack could be detected (MiG 15s with their higher ceiling were well known for leaving distinctive contrails) and they could have used the F8's superior zoom climb to turn into the enemy and either defeat the attack or draw them in to a turning fight where the Meteor was far superior.
After some difficulty and a few victories over MiGs, 77SQN RAAF while struggling to learn how best to fly and fight the F8, 77SQN was switched to ground attack where they performed extremely well.
The truth is that the Meteor F8 was a much more capable fighter than it has been given credit for. It was not that much slower than the MiG 15 if we use 'peak' figures. The 585mph often quoted for the Meteor is a little misleading, (people mix low altitude mph vs TAS vs Mach number) as this was at sea level in dense, thick air. In fact an earlier F4 actually held the world speed record of 616mph at sea level in 1945. (At the same altitude, captured German performance charts showed the Me 262 could manage just 490mph)
The F8 was capable of Mach 0.82-84 at altitude with a VNE of 0.89. For a first generation jet built without the benefit of the German high speed wind tunnel research captured after the war, this was pretty impressive
Despite its swept wing, the MCrit of the MiG was 0.82–0.85 and the Meteor Mach 0.82-not a big difference. The MiG was transonically unstable in a dive (as many pilots including Chuck Yeager) found to their discomfort or ultimate cost, and oilots were warned not at attempt to approach its VNE, so its primary escape manouevre could be terminal.
The MiGs first generation swept wing design (with its less than optimal aerofoil profile) had to be ameliorated by large wing fences to prevent excessive spanwise airflow and it would experience tip stall and depart in a tight turn. Soviet squadron records show that many 'spinning' MiG 15s that were claimed as victories by eager USAF pilots actually recovered and returned to base, chastened but unharmed.
The MiG 15 typically used it's speed and altitude advantage (thanks to its copied British Nene engine) in common slashing attacks and avoided turning fights (unless piloted by experienced Russian pilots) but if a Meteor saw it first and turned aggressively into the merge, the MiG would have no hope in a turning fight, as the Meteor had a wing loading of 44.9 lb/sq ft compared to 60.7 lb/sq ft with an almost identical thrust to weight ratio.
Again, the MiG did have a superior ceiling and rate of climb to the Sabre and Meteor thanks to its VK1 (copied British Nene) engine but that only gets you so far.
The Meteor had better fighter armament in the 4 Hispano 20mm with a higher muzzle velocity (880m/s vs 660 m/s for the NR 23 giving a much flatter trajectory and so better accuracy (the MiG was designed with heavier armament for shooting down bombers).
RAAF 77SQN Meteor scoring a rare victory over MiG 15.
In short, a properly trained F8 pilot with good tactics and situational awareness and using the strengths of his aircraft, would have a very good chance of dispatching a MiG 15.
BTW if you are interested in more carefully researched, sourced and fact-based articles, find me on Quora as Completeaerogeek. (I have several hundred answers/articles and over 7M views and counting) I am also an Editor in Aviation/Aerospace on Wikipedia. Cheers CAG - MSc Tech (AV) MRAeS AIAA
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