Prop tip Hurricane MK1 possibly N2382 ?

[seabeggar]

I was gifted the prop tip (last 9 inches) of a Hurricane Mk1 many years ago by my godfather. He was a Leading Aircraftsman with the BEF. Its sawn off neatly. I recall someone else in the family was given a dial. Sadly he has passed away. The only detail I have is a label he stuck on it which reads "Removed" from the first RAF Fighter shot down by the Germans in France in 1939 near Verdun". I have been doing some online research. I am having to surmise a few things, but this is what I am thinking on balance of probabilities.

I suspect the year is wrong, as far as I can make out no Hurricanes shot down near Verdun until May 10 1940? On that day a number were lost. The one that fits best is 2382. This choice is from looking at the proximity of other crashes to Verdun and the damage to prop tip. Its was the closest and others described as nearer to other towns. The yellow paint is scored rotationally as if it cut through undegrowth. 2382 is described as " Belly Landing" east of Verdun after engine damage engaging a Do 17 so the prop rotational damage adds up. If this is then 2382 its quite an interesting lead. It was the plane flown by minor Ace P Richey when he shot down a BF109 (pilot Lt Joseph Volk, crash landed & wounded) on 29 March. It was also the aircraft that shot down the RAFs first ME 110 on the same day piloted by S/L P R Walker. Walker was piloting it on the 10 May when he claimed a 1/3 share in Do17 which shot him down at 05.30 . I am wondering if my identification seems reasonable? I will be able to obtain my godfathers service record, but suspect he was in either 73 or 1 Squadron. Not clear though that that will help. Presumably the nearest ground crew attended to salvage plane or parts and both Squadrons seem to have been operating in the area. I appreciate establishing providence is tricky. Its a special artefact to me, but the potential back story makes it more fascinating. I have ordered P Richeys classic book Fighter Pilot which hopefully contains an account of 2382 encounter with the Volks BE 109. If anyone could suggest alternative aircraft this might be or direct me to a picture the actual plane or a more appropriate forum I would be grateful.

 

[stona]

What makes you think that it is from a Hurricane?

The first losses in France were Battles. The first Hurricane (L1588) was shot down by the French, so that doesn't count!

The first Hurricane shot down by the Germans was L1965 of No. 87 Squadron, downed by return fire from an He 111 on Thursday 2nd November 1939. It made a forced landing at Lille-Seclin, a long way from Verdun. At least some part of your label must be incorrect.

Cheers

Steve

 

[seabeggar]

Thanks Stona thats interesting. I was going with the location being accurate rather than date. Maybe wrong, but I can remember an event being in a place longer than I can the year it happened. As you say Lille-Seclin is 300 Km from Verdun. Sounds like my godfathers RAF service record might be helpful if it tells me which squadron/where he was in November 39 & May 40. Do you have a list of Hurricane loss's in France for that period? I am pretty sure its a Hurricane prop, I know he worked on Hurricanes, so think its less likely he got that wrong. I will look at uploading a picture.

 

[seabeggar]

 

[stona]

The first Hurricane I can find coming down due to enemy action near Verdun is a 1 Squadron machine, L1590, on 23rd November 1939.
'Hit in engine by return fire from Do 17 P of 4.(F)/122 engaged over Bar le Duc, and belly landed near Moiremont, west of Verdun, 11.15 am. Flying Officer C.D. Palmer unhurt. Aircraft write off.'

This is the only one that fits the bill for 1939, though Moiremont is about 20 miles from Verdun..

The damage to that propeller tip is not consistent with a power on wheels up landing in which propellers of this type are usually smashed to pieces. That doesn't mean that it couldn't have survived a dead stick landing, being one of the blades that did not strike the ground.

May 10th 1940 was the opening day of the German offensive in the West, and there was therefore a lot of action that day and the British Air Forces in France ( BAFF), both the Advanced Air Striking Force (AASF) and the Air Component of the BEF suffered substantial losses. I just don't see how any of these can fit the description of "first RAF fighter shot down by the Germans in France", because many had already been lost, or, more obviously the year 1939.
I think you will struggle to nail down a specific aircraft, given the information you have, but this doesn't detract from the fact that you've got a very nice item with an interesting, if slightly vague history

If you feel that the May 1940 date is most likely, then Hurricanes were operated as part of the AASF by Nos.1 and 73 Squadrons already in France, joined by Nos. 501, 17 and 242 from the UK.
Hurricanes of the Air Component BEF came from Nos. 85 and 87 Squadrons, reinforced respectively by A Flight 242 Squadron and A Flight 111 Squadron.
That's a lot to look through!

I would try to get your Godfather's service record. For example knowing where he was and when would narrow the search down considerably. Nearly every serviceman in France is now thought of as being with the BEF (not least since Dunkirk) but of course many were attached to other organisations as you can see from the RAF's Order of battle on 10th May.

Cheers

Steve

 

[seabeggar]

Thanks for looking into this Steve. That's very interesting. That might be the best fit for the details so far. Trying to find more about my godfathers war service from relatives and records to see if can reduce the guess work. Would ground crews have been aware about other squadrons loss's or was this information kept quiet, in which case he might have thought the loss was a "first one"

I am wondering about the number L1590 though, when I Google that Hurricane Mk L1590 I get this reference which doesn't match if the aircraft was written off...... "Billy Drake's Hurricane MK 1 would appear to be RAF Serial No L 1590.This was the one which was lost on 13 May 1940 over France" P O drake fighter pilot

Also appears in a list elsewhere 39095 F/O Billy Drake DSO, DFC. English. RAF 1, 213, 112, 91, 421F Squadron. Hurricane I L1590 "P" The Battle of Britain Historical Society Discussion Forum - The pilots of 1 squadron

Does this suggest the aircraft was in fact repaired or were numbers reassigned ( I do see in Aces High by S Shores a brief note saying "L1590 was P", does this mean the number was transferred to another machine?) or are these reference about Billy Drakes machine being L1590 incorrect?

 

[stona]

Serials were not re-assigned. A repaired aircraft retained its original serial. Both Palmer and Drake's aircraft were written off, and with that the serial 'died'.
Peter Cornwell does not give a serial for Drake's aircraft, but agrees that it was coded P.
The evidence for the earlier loss being L1590 may outweigh the later evidence, but I don't know on what Cornwell has based his assumption. Just about any serial assignation from this period should be treated with caution. Everything from log books to squadron ORBs (if they survived) were written up retrospectively during what was a period of intense activity and movement. No. 1 Squadron alone lost six Hurricanes on the 13th (including Drakes).

The records of RAF and other losses at this time are fragmentary to say the least. Cornwell acknowledges that his RAF serials come from a rather circuitous route from James Halley's work, via Heinrich Weiss' archive (later owned by Larry Hickey) and thence to Brian Cull's work. Most of these serials are duplicated in Norman Frank's work on Fighter Command losses, but not all. I suspect, but can't say for sure, that this may be the origin of this discrepancy.

Cheers

Steve

 

[seabeggar]

Thanks again Steve for your time, this quest seems to be lost in the fog of war. I will follow the service record lead. There is one other potential trail, but I think its lost and that a was a "dial" from the same aircraft. I recall seeing it as a small child & I think it might have been the compass. Would that have a serial number on it that could be traced to a particular aircraft?

 

[stona]

This is not an area with which I'm really familiar, but as far as I know the aircraft type or types which used a particular instrument can be established by identifying the instrument, but it cannot be traced to a particular aircraft.

One of the most commonly 'liberated' instruments from downed aircraft was the clock, which might have a practical use. The compass was a relatively large instrument, specially if it was removed with its mounting 'tray'.

Spitfire Spares: Spitfire and Aircraft Spares, Parts Manuals, Hurricane, Spitfire, Warbird and V1 Doodlebug Replicas is a site which sells many aviation artefacts, you might find something there to jog your memory.

Cheers

Steve

 

[seabeggar]

Thanks again Steve. Found out some more information which may narrow this down. He went to France in 1939 & was a fitter with 73 Squadron. So most likely he would have been at Base d'Étain - Rouvres in November 39. This is 16 miles east of Verdun, and Moirement (L1590 crash site) is 30 miles west. I guess that puts him in the right area at the right time. Different Squadron as L1590 was 1 Squadron (L1590's shooting down described in P.Richeys book) & its home base was at Vassincourt closer as the crow flys to the crash site, 30 miles, but not on main roads unlike the Rouvres - Moirment route. L1590 would seem to be the closest match to the label info on the prop tip & adds up aside from the "first" claim, I suppose it was one of the first. He was later evacuated by Dunkirk & went onto be commisioned as a Flt Lt.