Rare Bear Naked!

Thread starter FLYBOYJ
Start date Jun 21, 2015
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Jun 25, 2015

#21

GregP

Major

I think they're being silly to require people to fly ± a few feet in altitude, and I hear most of the racers do, too. I fully understand not flying too low, but as long as you are outside the pylons, I don't see why you can't fly higher up until it becomes a problem for the pylon judges. I suppose it is what it is. Run if you want to run and don't if you don't.

In heat 3A last year on Saturday, Stevo Hinton ran the course in 05:50.950 for an average official speed of 492.525 mph.

However, if he averaged 492+ mph then he had faster laps and slower laps. I wish the individual lap times were posted.

Best of luck with your jet team this year. Maybe a little extra wax … and a small bit of Bourbon in the fuel. Fill up the tires with helium to make it lighter. You know, the usual speed secrets that people in the pits talk about.

Seriously, best of luck. Go fast. Turn left.

From the Reno website, apparently the jet course is slightly different from the Unlimited course. The mileage for jets is 8.1025 miles and the mileage for unlimiteds is 8.0851 miles. The difference is 91.872 feet! How the heck ccan you set up and 8 mile course and have a difference of 91 feet?

Maybe one pylon is slightly moved?

Last edited: Jun 25, 2015

Jun 25, 2015

#22

G

grampi

Senior Airman

FLYBOYJ said:
I doupt you're going to see very many 500 mph + speeds in any class (only the jets and unlimiteds could do this at this time.) The course has been made shorter since the 2013 crash and as stated there is actually a "speed limit" for the jets and unlimiteds. Prior to 2013 we had jets that were hitting 540 mph.

Just some thoughts - during the course of the race you could only "throttle back" so much. Seconds and a few miles per hour are huge during the races. During the races I perch myself at a certain spot and track my plane's time and I could tell you, that you need a lot of "smash" to pass on the outside at full speed. For the most part once you get the jump out of the chute and get out front, if you could maintain power and fly a good line, you're going to win. Additionally the wake from lead planes will slow down trailers and may take several seconds off their times.

The last thing to consider is wind conditions. This year at PRS we had one afternoon where the winds were 20 G35. I saw some guys run slow and yet others seem to pick up a second or two.

To give you some idea of course times and speeds I've downloaded a chart we use to figure out speeds. Although the document says "jets", I'm pretty certain the same math is used in the unlimiteds.View attachment 295543

Who crashed in '13? The last crash at Reno I heard about was Ghost in '11...

Jun 26, 2015

#23

O

Ottobon

Airman

Newbie here who is just wanting to learn, share the little i know, and whatnot

I am genuinely interested in the story of how and why Rare Bear used to make so much power but isn't anymore, what is the reason for this?

Jun 26, 2015

#24

GregP

Major

When Lyle Shelton "rescued" Rare Bear from a crash, he installed an R-3350 instead of the stock R-2800. Once it was running, they worked on it over the years and finally got a win. Lyle used Nitrous Oxide, usually in the last 2 - 3 laps, to get a power boost. The exhaust turned dirty brown and Lyle would never admit to using NO2, but the truck came around to his pit after a race and ran lines to the aircraft. It wasn't hard to figure out.

When Rod Lewis bought the team I undertsand he didn't want to run Nitrous. That may be wrong, but it is what I heard.

So, Lyle used to get about 4,500 HP ± a bit with a shot of NO2 and Rod is getting about 4,000 HP ± a bit without it, at full rattle, give or take a bit.

Easy result to deduce ... lose 1/9th of the power and lose speed. They went mid-480s with 4,500 HP and I'd expect mid 470's without NO2 ... IF everything is healthy and running right and the pilot isn't going up and down (he isn't). I'm sure the speed is there ... but I'm NOT sure anyone wants to spend the money to get it and take the chance of blowing up the R-3350.

They are desperatly short of R-3350 main bearings these days; no ... they have NO mains these days. When the mains are gone, you make your R-3350 a museum piece or find another R-3350 with good main bearings.

Fortunately, they HAVE R-2800 parts and, though the speeds won't increase any or be quite as high, they can race for awhile yet with the R-2800 family of radials and parts stash.

Merlin parts are getting scarce, too. They are flying parts they would have thrown away 30 years ago.

Plently of Allison parts around, if you know where they are. Start blowing them up, though, and that changes rapidy. Blown engines are a real problem for any limited parts supply situation, whether the engines be WWII vintage or modern.

No parts equals a great static display.

Sometime in the near future we will have to husband the parts and fly these things at normal power levels or they will go extinct.

Though, if we eliminated the "let's litigate" mentality, we COULD manufacture NEW parts. In the present legal climate, nobody wants to make parts and lose their shirt when somebody crashes. The Jimmy Leeward legacy is what I'm talking about.

They even sued the engine builder, and it was running just fine when it hit the ground! What is up with THAT? How can you sue someone who built a machine that runs correctly? Not sure, but it's being done, AFAIK.

Our legal system is the laughing stock of the world. An accident is an accident. Reasonable costs should be awarded, not a full golden parachute from manufacturers / builders just because something happened that was the fault of the owner or operator.

What a travesty ... sometimes nobody is really at fault, it is an ACCIDENT. Parts came off "The Galloping Ghost" and Jimmy wasn't able to recover from the event. It was and remains unfortunate, but how is that anyone else's fault? There might be someone who installed that hardware and didn't noticed it wasn't holding, but whoever they may have been was on the build team. The engine had NOTHING to do with the crash except for generating the power to get fast enough to cause the failure, which is what it was purchased / built for - to go faster than oterhwise possible. The trim faster error is on the person who put it into the aircraft, not the designer of the change to the trim system. I have NO idea who that was / is anmd don't want to speculate.

I miss Jimmy Leeward and his very good team. He had an idea, and it was WORKING when things went sour all at once. It isn't the first time a trim system has failed, but it was likely the fastest anyone had ever gone when the failure occurred. That's almost, but not quite, the definition of "getting it right."

To get it right, you are supposed to live to celebrate the win.

Jun 26, 2015

#25

G

grampi

Senior Airman

GregP said:
When Lyle Shelton "rescued" Rare Bear from a crash, he installed an R-3350 instead of the stock R-2800. Once it was running, they worked on it over the years and finally got a win. Lyle used Nitrous Oxide, usually in the last 2 - 3 laps, to get a power boost. The exhaust turned dirty brown and Lyle would never admit to using NO2, but the truck came around to his pit after a race and ran lines to the aircraft. It wasn't hard to figure out.

When Rod Lewis bought the team I undertsand he didn't want to run Nitrous. That may be wrong, but it is what I heard.

So, Lyle used to get about 4,500 HP ± a bit with a shot of NO2 and Rod is getting about 4,000 HP ± a bit without it, at full rattle, give or take a bit.

Easy result to deduce ... lose 1/9th of the power and lose speed. They went mid-480s with 4,500 HP and I'd expect mid 470's without NO2 ... IF everything is healthy and running right and the pilot isn't going up and down (he isn't). I'm sure the speed is there ... but I'm NOT sure anyone wants to spend the money to get it and take the chance of blowing up the R-3350.

They are desperatly short of R-3350 main bearings these days; no ... they have NO mains these days. When the mains are gone, you make your R-3350 a museum piece or find another R-3350 with good main bearings.

Fortunately, they HAVE R-2800 parts and, though the speeds won't increase any or be quite as high, they can race for awhile yet with the R-2800 family of radials and parts stash.

Merlin parts are getting scarce, too. They are flying parts they would have thrown away 30 years ago.

Plently of Allison parts around, if you know where they are. Start blowing them up, though, and that changes rapidy. Blown engines are a real problem for any limited parts supply situation, whether the engines be WWII vintage or modern.

No parts equals a great static display.

Sometime in the near future we will have to husband the parts and fly these things at normal power levels or they will go extinct.

Though, if we eliminated the "let's litigate" mentality, we COULD manufacture NEW parts. In the present legal climate, nobody wants to make parts and lose their shirt when somebody crashes. The Jimmy Leeward legacy is what I'm talking about.

They even sued the engine builder, and it was running just fine when it hit the ground! What is up with THAT? How can you sue someone who built a machine that runs correctly? Not sure, but it's being done, AFAIK.

Our legal system is the laughing stock of the world. An accident is an accident. Reasonable costs should be awarded, not a full golden parachute from manufacturers / builders just because something happened that was the fault of the owner or operator.

What a travesty ... sometimes nobody is really at fault, it is an ACCIDENT. Parts came off "The Galloping Ghost" and Jimmy wasn't able to recover from the event. It was and remains unfortunate, but how is that anyone else's fault? There might be someone who installed that hardware and didn't noticed it wasn't holding, but whoever they may have been was on the build team. The engine had NOTHING to do with the crash except for generating the power to get fast enough to cause the failure, which is what it was purchased / built for - to go faster than oterhwise possible. The trim faster error is on the person who put it into the aircraft, not the designer of the change to the trim system. I have NO idea who that was / is anmd don't want to speculate.

I miss Jimmy Leeward and his very good team. He had an idea, and it was WORKING when things went sour all at once. It isn't the first time a trim system has failed, but it was likely the fastest anyone had ever gone when the failure occurred. That's almost, but not quite, the definition of "getting it right."

To get it right, you are supposed to live to celebrate the win.

I certainly don't know this for sure, but it's my belief the unlimited air races as we know them are running on borrowed time. As you pointed out, parts for these warbirds are becoming scarce, and the expense of producing the parts, and the litigations involved when something goes wrong will eventually shutdown warbird racing altogether...and then, who wants to watch a bunch of homebuilts running around the course? Not me...without the warbirds I don't think air racing survives...

Jun 26, 2015

#26

razor1uk

Staff Sergeant

GregP said:
....
From what I understand, Rod Lewis doesn't want the team to run Nitrous Oxide at Reno. But the system is still installed and all they'd have to do is fill it up and use it to go as fast or faster than the Bear ever went. ... They may not use Nitrous at Reno anymore these days but, if they ever decide to go for another world speed record attempt, they'd HAVE to in order to get it. It gives them another 400+ HP and that's what you need for a new record.....

I wonder if part of the unused NO2 system could be converted into a pressurised spray system for water or methanol-ated/-ised water/mist injection without too much adjustment alteration - at the least for additional cooling?

Jun 26, 2015

Thread starter
#27

FLYBOYJ

"THE GREAT GAZOO"

grampi said:
Who crashed in '13? The last crash at Reno I heard about was Ghost in '11...

Correct, my typo...

GregP said:
When Lyle Shelton "rescued" Rare Bear from a crash, he installed an R-3350 instead of the stock R-2800. Once it was running, they worked on it over the years and finally got a win. Lyle used Nitrous Oxide, usually in the last 2 - 3 laps, to get a power boost. The exhaust turned dirty brown and Lyle would never admit to using NO2, but the truck came around to his pit after a race and ran lines to the aircraft. It wasn't hard to figure out.

When Rod Lewis bought the team I undertsand he didn't want to run Nitrous. That may be wrong, but it is what I heard.

During that period there was a guy on the team named Bill Hickle. I think he was the crew chief for a few years and later helped come up with some of the speed mods, I believe he designed the Nitrous system. I worked with Bill in the full-time world, great guy, talented mechanic, pilot and engineer. he left when Rod bought the plane.

grampi said:
I certainly don't know this for sure, but it's my belief the unlimited air races as we know them are running on borrowed time. As you pointed out, parts for these warbirds are becoming scarce, and the expense of producing the parts, and the litigations involved when something goes wrong will eventually shutdown warbird racing altogether...and then, who wants to watch a bunch of homebuilts running around the course? Not me...without the warbirds I don't think air racing survives...

I tend to agree with you but those who have a more technical interest might be energized with what the sport class is doing and how they are really kicking their speeds up. Another thing that is hurting air racing in general is a lack of cooperation between RARA and other people who want to put up more air racing venues during the course of the year. I could be wrong but I've heard this from several owner/ operators.

There's a few jet owners who want to get another event started where modified L29s (Viper and Pratt engines) as well as L39s (DV-2 engine) will be allowed to fly. You're not going to get the rumble of recips going around the course at 500 mph, but you'll see jets racing at speeds in excess of 540 mph.

Jun 26, 2015

#28

gjs238

Tech Sergeant

grampi said:
I certainly don't know this for sure, but it's my belief the unlimited air races as we know them are running on borrowed time. As you pointed out, parts for these warbirds are becoming scarce, and the expense of producing the parts, and the litigations involved when something goes wrong will eventually shutdown warbird racing altogether...and then, who wants to watch a bunch of homebuilts running around the course? Not me...without the warbirds I don't think air racing survives...

How do the homebuilts cope with the liability vs the unlimiteds?

Jun 26, 2015

#29

G

grampi

Senior Airman

FLYBOYJ said:
Correct, my typo...

During that period there was a guy on the team named Bill Hickle. I think he was the crew chief for a few years and later helped come up with some of the speed mods, I believe he designed the Nitrous system. I worked with Bill in the full-time world, great guy, talented mechanic, pilot and engineer. he left when Rod bought the plane.

I tend to agree with you but those who have a more technical interest might be energized with what the sport class is doing and how they are really kicking their speeds up. Another thing that is hurting air racing in general is a lack of cooperation between RARA and other people who want to put up more air racing venues during the course of the year. I could be wrong but I've heard this from several owner/ operators.

There's a few jet owners who want to get another event started where modified L29s (Viper and Pratt engines) as well as L39s (DV-2 engine) will be allowed to fly. You're not going to get the rumble of recips going around the course at 500 mph, but you'll see jets racing at speeds in excess of 540 mph.

I just don't see the interest in the sport without the warbirds...

Jun 26, 2015

#30

G

grampi

Senior Airman

gjs238 said:
How do the homebuilts cope with the liability vs the unlimiteds?

Good question...I have no idea...

Jun 26, 2015

#31

GregP

Major

Hey Joe,

Do you have any idea at all where they might be looking for a race course? If they can find a good place, RARA would be out of business, and good riddance!

Jun 26, 2015

Thread starter
#32

FLYBOYJ

"THE GREAT GAZOO"

gjs238 said:
How do the homebuilts cope with the liability vs the unlimiteds?

Most of the people racing those have less to lose. i do know that RARA has race insurance for them.

grampi said:
I just don't see the interest in the sport without the warbirds...

Some people just like to see airplanes go around a course fast, regardless where they come from. There are several formular one venues held overseas

GregP said:
Hey Joe,

Do you have any idea at all where they might be looking for a race course? If they can find a good place, RARA would be out of business, and good riddance!

I heard rumors about Mojave and Wendover. Mojave would be perfect as it's somewhat close to seval big cities. i also heard some guys talk about a location in Georgia.

Jun 26, 2015

#33

razor1uk

Staff Sergeant

..a location in Georgia, US, I hopefully guess, not the between EU ME one, otherwise Czar Crapbox might mistake them some sort of advanced training meet.

Jun 26, 2015

#34

P

pbehn

Colonel

Is there a type approval problem with bearings? Is it not possible to manufacture new ones? Same for pistons rods cylinder heads and all the other gubbins or do they have to be by original (now out of business) companies? I find it hard to believe that the companies that produce bearings and engine parts for Formula one (for example) cannot produce a bearing or component for a 1940s aircraft.

Last edited: Jun 26, 2015

Jun 26, 2015

#35

GregP

Major

Any bearing company can make bearings. As soon as they hear "aircraft," they run like an Olympic sprinter. The product liability for aircrft parts is now, I believe, 16 years. So if anything goes wrong within that time, the litigation will be expensive. They may be able to easily make any bearings, but if you even mention aircraft, they just hang up.

If you don't mention aircraft, they will become suspicious when you start speficying military-grade metals or hardness. At least that has been my experience. We DID manage to find some bearings for the F-86 slats, but a set was $5k.

Last edited: Jun 29, 2015

Jun 29, 2015

#36

jimh

Senior Airman

Fortunately air racing is probably less than 1% of the vintage engine world. Every Merlin operator I know runs no more than 50 to 55" of MP for takeoff. We are using Roush engines and getting 1000 hours out of them. I am a fan of Reno...for me it represents the continuing legacy of these airframes. Unfortunately there really aren't enough people with deep enough pockets that have the interest to fund an unlimited race team. OR build a completely new airframe like Tsunami. I say this about all facets of Warbird operations...enjoy what we have now cause it isn't going to last forever. These are the good old days

Jim

Jun 29, 2015

#37

GregP

Major

I don't think it is "fortunate" at all.

The warbirds that were cut up and modified for Gold-class racing are few and were available and cheap at the time. If racing were a bit less expensive, we'd have a big Bronze class and they are mostly stock aircraft, with few if any moidifications to them from when they were built.

Nodody is cutting up warbirds today to make racers. If anyone DOES make a new Gold-class racer today, it is likely to be from parts salvaged from wrecks, not from a good, fyable airframe.

Jun 30, 2015

#38

jimh

Senior Airman

agreed....BUT there are no airframes that have been modified for air racing sans Precious Metal that could not be returned to stock relatively easy. Stilleto, Sumthin Else, Ridge Runner, and a few others come to mind that have been or will be returned to stock configuration. Strega, Dago, and Voodoo are the legacy airframes that have a rich racing history. Rare Bear could be returned to stock much easier than rebuilding some of the wrecks that are currently being rebuilt at Ezell. Even the Red Baron is flying as Wee Willy...if only in paperwork. As far as engines, most builders are shying away from building race engines because the reputation attached to the high probability of failure and a shortage of parts. I don't see anyone converting a stock airframe to a racer in the near future. There are a couple prospects in the works, including a new RB...if funding is made available. Race engines are built to survive the Gold Race...not 1000 hours of reliability. The overall value of a 100% stock airframe is taking priority even over an airframe rebuilt as a "sport plane". The warbird market has quickly shifted from an owner that wants a semi stock machine to an investor market that wants an airframe representing a period piece that also has inherent reliability afforded in modern engine rebuilds.

jim

GregP said:
I don't think it is "fortunate" at all.

The warbirds that were cut up and modified for Gold-class racing are few and were available and cheap at the time. If racing were a bit less expensive, we'd have a big Bronze class and they are mostly stock aircraft, with few if any moidifications to them from when they were built.

Nodody is cutting up warbirds today to make racers. If anyone DOES make a new Gold-class racer today, it is likely to be from parts salvaged from wrecks, not from a good, fyable airframe.

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