Relative Rolling Characteristics of WWII Fighters

stona · Mar 21, 2013

Or landing in a ploughed field.
ACM Sir John Allison did exactly that when attempting to land Bf 109 G-2 Trop "Black 6" after an engine problem during an airshow at Duxford in 1997.

Rescue crews were on hand almost immiediately but Sir John refused to allow them to cut him free in order to prevent further damage to the aircraft. He hung in his harness for 45 minutes whilst they dug him out.

I have many images of Bf 109s that have suffered a similar fate landing on uneven,boggy or ill prepared fields.

Cheers

Steve

krieghund · Mar 21, 2013

Here's a chart from the RAAF couldn't really reduce it as its clarity was too reduced.

GregP · Mar 21, 2013

Thanks for the chart, War Dog!

davebender · Mar 23, 2013

Isn't that a hazard for any small, lightweight tail dragger? If wheels snag in a ditch or furrow it's going to pivot forward onto nose and perhaps flop completely over.

tyrodtom · Mar 23, 2013

davebender said:
Isn't that a hazard for any small, lightweight tail dragger? If wheels snag in a ditch or furrow it's going to pivot forward onto nose and perhaps flop completely over.

In a Bf109 you had to open the canopy up and over, so no way to open it if you're on your back. So if you didn't anticipate a difficult landing and jettison the canopy before landing, you were stuck.
In a fighter with a sliding canopy, you just slide the canopy back on landing if you wish. And even if you don't slide it back before the crash, there's still some chance of sliding it back afterward.

stona · Mar 23, 2013

tyrodtom said:
In a Bf109 you had to open the canopy up and over, so no way to open it if you're on your back. So if you didn't anticipate a difficult landing and jettison the canopy before landing, you were stuck.
In a fighter with a sliding canopy, you just slide the canopy back on landing if you wish. And even if you don't slide it back before the crash, there's still some chance of sliding it back afterward.

More important was a side door,as in the Spitfire,or kickout panel as in the Hurricane and various other British aircraft,which would allow the pilot to escape even if the hood was not open.

Luftwaffe pilots were supposed to jetisson their canopies before making a forced landing.

Crashed enemy aircraft photographs would suggest that they did not always do so.

An unexpected landing or take off accident is another thing altogether.

Cheers

Steve

tyrodtom · Mar 23, 2013

You can see a lot of sliding canopy aircraft taking off with their canopies open, and also landing with them open.
With a Bf109, you didn't have that option.
Sometimes landings that you think are going to be normal, don't turn out that way.

davebender · Mar 23, 2013

That sounds like a smart idea. Why didn't all WWII era fighter aircraft have a similiar safety feature?

stona · Mar 23, 2013

davebender said:
That sounds like a smart idea. Why didn't all WWII era fighter aircraft have a similiar safety feature?

I can only guess that it might have structural consequences if not designed in.

Cheers

Steve

riacrato · Mar 23, 2013

Probably more of a cost thing. Like completely covered main wheels and so on.

tyrodtom · Mar 23, 2013

The Hurricane had a steel tube fuselage, so there were large areas of unstressed skin you could use for this kick-out panel.
A lot of WW2 fighters were of a type of construction where the skin carried some of stress, it wouldn't work too well to put a kick-out panel in that.

fastmongrel · Mar 25, 2013

The early Typhoons with a door look horrible and also lethal. How did the pilot jump out did the door come off because I cant imagine anyway of opening the door against the windpressure. Even when the Typhoon got the sliding bubble there were problems with the canopy not latching back and slamming forward on a wheels up landing.

cimmex · Mar 25, 2013

AFAIK the P-39 has doors at both sides.
cimmex

stona · Mar 25, 2013

A pilot's account of the method for abandoning a Typhoon....not entirely clear.

"The jettisoning was an odd operation, you had to cross your hands and grab rails both sides and pull inwards to open, then release the harnesses and remove the oxygen mask, put the airplane upside down and drop out."

I know that both doors and the hood could be jettisoned.

Steve

bobbysocks · Mar 25, 2013

and remember you are trying to do this fighting 3, 4, ...6 Gs in a spin or dive. its one thing to have the opportunity to bail out...another to have the ability to.

stona · Mar 25, 2013

bobbysocks said:
and remember you are trying to do this fighting 3, 4, ...6 Gs in a spin or dive. its one thing to have the opportunity to bail out...another to have the ability to.

Indeed. Many of the directions for abandoning an aircraft seem to assume that some control is still maintained which might very often not be the case.
Cheers
Steve

GregP · Mar 25, 2013

Yes, the P-39 has doors on both sides and they can be jettisoned in flight for bail out.

I'd be more worried about the driveshaft spinning between my legs than the doors in the event of battle damage ...

tomo pauk · Mar 25, 2013

Were there any pilots wounded by the drive shaft mishap?

GregP · Mar 25, 2013

I'd have to investigate it but, having sat in one, I was not comfortable with it.

Then again, I've had a driveshaft snap on a dragstrip. If it were not for the driveshaft shackle, it might have been BAD. As it was, I coasted over the line at 98 mph with no connection between the engine and the rear end. I also had use of a bell housing scatter shield be fortuitous once on a dragstrip ... blew up a clutch and pressure plate. Too much power (850+HP) for the parts that were rated for 600+ HP.

With a record like that, I might have been the guy looking for his cods when the driveshaft let go in the middle of the cockpit ... and I'd just as soon NOT be. What would have made it a bit more confortable was an armored driveshaft sleeve and a scatter shield over the driveshaft center bearing. Alas, neither one was installed ...

GregP · Mar 26, 2013

Hey Steve,

I've never seen a Bf 109 takeoff accident before without a failed main gear (last pic). This one lost a wheel, but the gear is in place. Interesting and unsual.

When we had a brake failure on takeoff (in the 2000 film "Pearl Harbor" in Europe), we groundlooped and snapped off the left main gear and folded the right gear. It's fixed today, but we are left with legacy issues and will have to fix some other stufff to get it airworthy again. As of now, it is back on the main gear but the fuel cell needs replacement and we have had to replace some ball bearings and small chains in the flap and elevator trim system as well as overhaul the oil tank and all the lines. Naturally, we have no armament (all wing mounted for an Ha.1112) and replaced the plexiglass all around. We're working on the small stuff now and it SHOULD be back in flyable condition within a year or so, give or take a bit.

It will have a reshaped glider tug DC-3 prop that will look very much like an original Bf 109 prop. The DC-3 glider tug props have very wide blades that can be recountoured to match a wide variety or German props. We have one that was recontoured to fit on our Flugwerk Fw 190 (belongs to Rudy Frasca) and it looks very authentic, width-wise ... and it really wakes up the P&W R-2800 installed (more HP than any German Fw 190 ever had).

Relative Rolling Characteristics of WWII Fighters

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