The poor performance of the 343 Kokutai against USAAF fighters

[CHen10]

The 343 Kokutai, which used the N1K2-J against the overwhelming might of the US Army and Navy, had a surprisingly bad record against the US Army fighter aircraft. The N1K2-J, which is considered by many to be the best Japanese fighter of WW2 scored many real victories against the US Navy and US Marine Corps and they actually shot down the Navy/Marine fighters each time they engaged them, apart from 15 April 1945 and 4 May 1945.

However, this is their record against USAAF fighters:

28 May 1945
343 Kokutai N1K2-Js vs 318 Fighter group P-47Ns

The Japanese claimed 4 victories and 4 N1K2-Js were shot down. While William Loflin's P-47N was damaged and leaking fuel by an N1K2, and as far as I know the P-47 was repaired and not lost. This is a potential victory since I don't know if Loflin's P-47 was repaired. Maybe someone here knows the truth but until then we have to conclude that the N1K2s had no success

Score:
0(1?)-4



5 July 1945
343 Kokutai N1K2-Js vs 35 Fighter Group P-51Ds

Once again, 4 N1K2-Js were shot down and the N1K2-Js claimed 1 P-51 (probably claimed by Teruichi Sato, the only member of the four member flight who survived) As far I know the P-51s didn't suffer any losses.

Score
0-4



1 August 1945

343 Kokutai N1K2-Js vs 348 Fighter Group P-51Ks

N1K2-Js claim 1 P-47 (Actually P-51) shot down while 3 N1K2s are shot down. Kanno was lost too but he was a non combat loss. 348 Fighter Group suffered no losses.

Score
0-3



8 August 1945
343 Kokutai vs 318, 414, and 507 Fighter Group P-47Ns

N1K2-Js claim 6 fighters shot down while 9 N1K2s are lost. 4 P-47Ns were shot down by N1K2-Js while one more suffered from engine failure. So finally we have some actual confirmed victories.

Score
4-9

Final score
4(5?)-20

The reason I post this is I want to hear people's thoughts on why their performance against the USAAF fighters was underwhelming and why they performed much better against the US Navy/Marine fighters.

One possible theory:
The 343 Kokutai pilots were used to Navy and Marine fighters which function differently to Army fighters. A perfect example is that on 28 May 1945 Oshibuchi Takashi noticed the P-47s over Kanoya at low level but instead of diving down and attacking them he ordered his flight to climb so as to maintain altitude advantage. This tactic would probably have worked against Hellcats or Corsairs, but the Jugs were able to climb above the Shiden Kais very quickly due to their water methanol injection and the dogfight happened at high altitude which only benefited the Americans flying the P-47N which excelled at high altitude.

Finally can anybody confirm if Loflin's P-47 was scrapped or repaired after it was damaged on 28 May 1945?

 

[AerialTorpedoDude69]

The 343 Kokutai, which used the N1K2-J against the overwhelming might of the US Army and Navy, had a surprisingly bad record against the US Army fighter aircraft. The N1K2-J, which is considered by many to be the best Japanese fighter of WW2 scored many real victories against the US Navy and US Marine Corps and they actually shot down the Navy/Marine fighters each time they engaged them, apart from 15 April 1945 and 4 May 1945.

However, this is their record against USAAF fighters:

28 May 1945
343 Kokutai N1K2-Js vs 318 Fighter group P-47Ns

The Japanese claimed 4 victories and 4 N1K2-Js were shot down. While William Loflin's P-47N was damaged and leaking fuel by an N1K2, and as far as I know the P-47 was repaired and not lost. This is a potential victory since I don't know if Loflin's P-47 was repaired. Maybe someone here knows the truth but until then we have to conclude that the N1K2s had no success

Score:
0(1?)-4



5 July 1945
343 Kokutai N1K2-Js vs 35 Fighter Group P-51Ds

Once again, 4 N1K2-Js were shot down and the N1K2-Js claimed 1 P-51 (probably claimed by Teruichi Sato, the only member of the four member flight who survived) As far I know the P-51s didn't suffer any losses.

Score
0-4



1 August 1945

343 Kokutai N1K2-Js vs 348 Fighter Group P-51Ks

N1K2-Js claim 1 P-47 (Actually P-51) shot down while 3 N1K2s are shot down. Kanno was lost too but he was a non combat loss. 348 Fighter Group suffered no losses.

Score
0-3



8 August 1945
343 Kokutai vs 318, 414, and 507 Fighter Group P-47Ns

N1K2-Js claim 6 fighters shot down while 9 N1K2s are lost. 4 P-47Ns were shot down by N1K2-Js while one more suffered from engine failure. So finally we have some actual confirmed victories.

Score
4-9

Final score
4(5?)-20

The reason I post this is I want to hear people's thoughts on why their performance against the USAAF fighters was underwhelming and why they performed much better against the US Navy/Marine fighters.

One possible theory:
The 343 Kokutai pilots were used to Navy and Marine fighters which function differently to Army fighters. A perfect example is that on 28 May 1945 Oshibuchi Takashi noticed the P-47s over Kanoya at low level but instead of diving down and attacking them he ordered his flight to climb so as to maintain altitude advantage. This tactic would probably have worked against Hellcats or Corsairs, but the Jugs were able to climb above the Shiden Kais very quickly due to their water methanol injection and the dogfight happened at high altitude which only benefited the Americans flying the P-47N which excelled at high altitude.

Finally can anybody confirm if Loflin's P-47 was scrapped or repaired after it was damaged on 28 May 1945?

Have you read Genda's Blade? It details most of these conflicts in detail, from the Japanese perspectives.

In most aerial dogfights, the victors are the ones that spot the enemy first and shoot first. The losers usually don't even know they're in combat until their planes are on fire. Another thing to keep in mind is that there were very few encounters between army aircraft and the 343rd. It's impossible to conclude anything based on so few encounters. But it appears to be bad luck combined with bad decision making.

In the combat from May 28, it's mentioned in Genda's Blade that in one flight of four Georges, two suffered drop tank malfunctions. Of these two, one returned to base. The other chose virtual suicide by continuing into combat with a malfunctioning aircraft. Given their numbers and the decision to fight outside of their optimal altitude, it's surprising that they didn't experience even worse losses. The P-47 pilots even commented favorably on the combat skills of the 343rd after this engagement.

You are also correct in that the lead pilot made the error of trying to engage P-47Ns at high altitude rather than trying to lure them to lower altitude. This was due to inexperience and bad judgement.

I can look into the other air combats as well, if you are interested.

 

[CHen10]

Have you read Genda's Blade? It details most of these conflicts in detail, from the Japanese perspectives.

In most aerial dogfights, the victors are the ones that spot the enemy first and shoot first. The losers usually don't even know they're in combat until their planes are on fire. Another thing to keep in mind is that there were very few encounters between army aircraft and the 343rd. It's impossible to conclude anything based on so few encounters. But it appears to be bad luck combined with bad decision making.

In the combat from May 28, it's mentioned in Genda's Blade that in one flight of four Georges, two suffered drop tank malfunctions. Of these two, one returned to base. The other chose virtual suicide by continuing into combat with a malfunctioning aircraft. Given their numbers and the decision to fight outside of their optimal altitude, it's surprising that they didn't experience even worse losses. The P-47 pilots even commented favorably on the combat skills of the 343rd after this engagement.

You are also correct in that the lead pilot made the error of trying to engage P-47Ns at high altitude rather than trying to lure them to lower altitude. This was due to inexperience and bad judgement.

I can look into the other air combats as well, if you are interested.

I have Genda's Blade and read the whole book. It's one of my favourite books but I noticed a few small errors such as the picture of the heavily damaged FG-1D and saying it was flown back to base after being heavily damaged by a Shiden Kai on 22 June 1945, when the damage seen in the photo was caused another Corsair colliding into it on landing.

Another error I saw was saying that the four P-47Ns on 8 August 1945 were lost due to engine failure and being hit by a B-29. This is not true. All four P-47Ns were shot down by Shiden Kais, one of the Shiden Kais being flown by Nakao Hideo. The only P-47 lost to engine failure was the one flown by Paul Lynn.

Of course, it's still an excellent book.

In the combat on May 28 1945 Vernon Wischer stated that he saw the windshield of William Loflin's P-47 covered in oil implying it had been damaged.

Do you know if Loflin's P-47 was scrapped?

After the 28 May 1945 combat the P-47 pilots said that "Jap pilots were very aggressive and showed excellent ability"

I have no idea why they said this considering how one sided the engagement was. Do you know why they said this? It seems strange to me.

 

[NTGray]

By 1945 the overall quality of those Japanese pilots who were still alive was far below the quality level of their 1942 pilots. Against the superior training and experience of American pilots, why would we expect anything other than an American advantage even if for the sake of argument we allow that the Japanese pilots were flying better airplanes?

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

By 1945 the overall quality of those Japanese pilots who were still alive was far below the quality level of their 1942 pilots. Against the superior training and experience of American pilots, why would we expect anything other than an American advantage even if for the sake of argument we allow that the Japanese pilots were flying better airplanes?

I'll put my money on a great pilot in a so-so plane before I bet on a so-so pilot in a great plane.

 

[EwenS]

The 343rd Kokutai was not a typical IJNAF unit in 1945.

When the 343rd Kokutai was reformed in Dec 1944, it was as an elite unit, with many pilots hand picked. Unlike most IJNAF units at that time about 45% had previous combat experience. And in Jan-Mar 1945 they trained to fhit in 4 aircraft flights and multiples thereof. The early problem they faced was the slow delivery of the N1K2 Shiden-Kai which meant having to use the N1K1 Shiden with its lesser performance to make up the numbers in its early days. From an initial theoretical strength of 144 pilots and aircraft, they lost 74 (or 80?) in combat in the 5 months to the cessation of hostilities and another 21 in flying accidents. On 15 Aug 1945 they could only assemble 18 airworthy N1K2.

 

[NTGray]

When the 343rd Kokutai was reformed in Dec 1944, it was as an elite unit, with many pilots hand picked. Unlike most IJNAF units at that time about 45% had previous combat experience.

An "elite" unit consisted of pilots of whom 55% had no previous combat experience? Elite by 1945 standards, perhaps, but not by 1941 and 42 standards.
Remember that even in 1942, a major carrier battle (Coral Sea) resulted in serious losses of Japanese pilots, such that Zuikaku, even though not badly damaged, was unable to participate at Midway because its air group was badly depleted and could not be replaced in time. Japanese airpower doctrine was such that simply moving the crippled Shokaku's planes to the Zuikaku was not feasible, even though such a move would have been routine for the American side. (I'm sure that Lexington's surviving planes were quickly reassigned to Yorktown and other carriers, but I would welcome knowledgeable comment on this.)
That attrition of Japanese pilots continued through the Guadalcanal campaign. By the time we get to the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot (Battle of the Philippine Sea), the loss of some 350 Japanese planes was not just a cause of a huge decline in overall Japanese pilot competence, but also a symptom of a decline that had already occurred. Too many top pilots were already gone by June of 1944. Otherwise it might not have been such a one-sided "turkey shoot."

 

[CHen10]

The quality of the Japanese pilots towards the end of the war definitely explains why even the 343 Kokutai struggled, I'm just surprised they struggled THAT much.

An "elite" unit consisted of pilots of whom 55% had no previous combat experience? Elite by 1945 standards, perhaps, but not by 1941 and 42 standards.
Remember that even in 1942, a major carrier battle (Coral Sea) resulted in serious losses of Japanese pilots, such that Zuikaku, even though not badly damaged, was unable to participate at Midway because its air group was badly depleted and could not be replaced in time. Japanese airpower doctrine was such that simply moving the crippled Shokaku's planes to the Zuikaku was not feasible, even though such a move would have been routine for the American side. (I'm sure that Lexington's surviving planes were quickly reassigned to Yorktown and other carriers, but I would welcome knowledgeable comment on this.)
That attrition of Japanese pilots continued through the Guadalcanal campaign. By the time we get to the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot (Battle of the Philippine Sea), the loss of some 350 Japanese planes was not just a cause of a huge decline in overall Japanese pilot competence, but also a symptom of a decline that had already occurred. Too many top pilots were already gone by June of 1944. Otherwise it might not have been such a one-sided "turkey shoot."

1941 to early 1944 seemed to be when Japanese pilots were at their peak. Pilots such as Sasai, Ota, Hato, Nishizawa, Takatsuka, Okumura, Endo, Oki, etc. were all killed by the time 1945 came along and so couldn't fly the Shiden-Kai with the 343 Kokutai.

If anything this makes the 318 Fighter Group's comments on 28 May 1945 even more baffling!

 

[AerialTorpedoDude69]

I have Genda's Blade and read the whole book. It's one of my favourite books but I noticed a few small errors such as the picture of the heavily damaged FG-1D and saying it was flown back to base after being heavily damaged by a Shiden Kai on 22 June 1945, when the damage seen in the photo was caused another Corsair colliding into it on landing.

Another error I saw was saying that the four P-47Ns on 8 August 1945 were lost due to engine failure and being hit by a B-29. This is not true. All four P-47Ns were shot down by Shiden Kais, one of the Shiden Kais being flown by Nakao Hideo. The only P-47 lost to engine failure was the one flown by Paul Lynn.

Of course, it's still an excellent book.

In the combat on May 28 1945 Vernon Wischer stated that he saw the windshield of William Loflin's P-47 covered in oil implying it had been damaged.

Do you know if Loflin's P-47 was scrapped?

After the 28 May 1945 combat the P-47 pilots said that "Jap pilots were very aggressive and showed excellent ability"

I have no idea why they said this considering how one sided the engagement was. Do you know why they said this? It seems strange to me.

I'm sorry to say that I don't know of any books or references which cover the May 28 air combat (or any other air combat during the time frames you are looking for). As far as I can tell, William Loflin does not have any interviews on record regarding May 28. But given that the N1K2-J only had Type 99 cannons equipped, any damage to the engine of a P-47 would have been substantial. Even if a Type 99 shell hit the oil line and exploded, the fragmentation effect may have been serious enough to write the machine off. But the oil could have been from shooting up a George at close range.

Regarding Genda's Blade, Sakaida was an excellent historian. I'm sure he also had errors although he usually had adequate sourcing for his materials. If there is something incorrect, it's always possible to return to the original documentation in order to verify an inaccuracy. But wow, excellent scholarship on your part for finding the errors in question.

So getting back to the main question: why did the 343rd do poorly against USAAF P-51D and P-47N aircraft? My best guess: altitude advantage. The USAAF operated at higher altitude than the Navy did, as the P-47N and P-51D had turbos. Their bombers were the B-24s and B-29s which also had turbos.

A longer explanation is that:

1. The USAAF probably flew sweep or escort missions whereas the Navy likely did sweeps, escort, and flew attack missions in which they were laden with bombs.
2. The Navy encountered the 343rd earlier when they still had a higher number of elite pilots in their ranks.
3. The USAAF probably (but I don't have evidence) flew at higher altitude on average than the Navy, which allowed them to employ dive-and-zoom attacks to a fuller extent. My reasoning is that they were designed for high altitude and oftentimes escorted either B-24s or B-29s.

Here are some events from Genda's Blade:

The July 5th air combat is interesting. The Mustangs similarly beat up on the 343rd in the same way, knocking down four Georges for no loss of their own. Although, again, they had the advantage of altitude and surprise. Again, and again, throughout the war, surprise and altitude would prove to be the deciding factor in aerial combat. In Genda's Blade the USAAF pilots mentioned that they could simply overtake the Georges and then shoot them down.

The comments regarding ability probably has to do with the 343rd's superior training relative to other Japanese units. It's been reported that many green pilots would enter a flat turn or keep flying straight when getting shot at. The reason that this reflects "poor" training is that aircraft are supposed to fight in sections with coordination between individual pilots. In Genda's blade, it's mentioned several times exactly what they mean by the 343rd being skilled. Here's a quote by a survivor of an attack from above:

"The green-painted Georges made excellent coordinated attacks by sections. The first section came straight in, in a steep dive from 10 o'clock high."

The quote above is similar to the other positive things that were said about the 343rd. Most important, if the 343rd started with altitude advantage, they used tactics that helped preserve altitude advantage. The George had unusually good energy retention for a radial-engine aircraft and would have excelled at maintaining altitude advantage as it could out-accelerate and out climb the Hellcat and Corsair at low altitude, and it had better energy retention. Additionally, the 343rd usually fought effectively as an air group probably because their radios weren't being interfered with by spark plug EMF as was the case on the Zero. (Older Zero fighters had unusable radios, apparently.)

If they did not have altitude advantage, they used beam defense tactics (the Thach Weave) as a defensive measure. I'm not 100% sure about this, but what's described in Genda's Blade sounds exactly like Beam Defense.

The 343rd Kokutai was not a typical IJNAF unit in 1945.

When the 343rd Kokutai was reformed in Dec 1944, it was as an elite unit, with many pilots hand picked. Unlike most IJNAF units at that time about 45% had previous combat experience. And in Jan-Mar 1945 they trained to fhit in 4 aircraft flights and multiples thereof. The early problem they faced was the slow delivery of the N1K2 Shiden-Kai which meant having to use the N1K1 Shiden with its lesser performance to make up the numbers in its early days. From an initial theoretical strength of 144 pilots and aircraft, they lost 74 (or 80?) in combat in the 5 months to the cessation of hostilities and another 21 in flying accidents. On 15 Aug 1945 they could only assemble 18 airworthy N1K2.

By July/August, the 343rd was reportedly using "C-class" pilots, or bottom-of-the-barrel trainees. In other words, the most elite unit in Japan was probably worse off in flight hours per pilot than an average US air group. They were probably never even close to Tainan Kokutai's per-pilot flight hours in 1942 as NTGray mentioned.

An "elite" unit consisted of pilots of whom 55% had no previous combat experience? Elite by 1945 standards, perhaps, but not by 1941 and 42 standards.
Remember that even in 1942, a major carrier battle (Coral Sea) resulted in serious losses of Japanese pilots, such that Zuikaku, even though not badly damaged, was unable to participate at Midway because its air group was badly depleted and could not be replaced in time. Japanese airpower doctrine was such that simply moving the crippled Shokaku's planes to the Zuikaku was not feasible, even though such a move would have been routine for the American side. (I'm sure that Lexington's surviving planes were quickly reassigned to Yorktown and other carriers, but I would welcome knowledgeable comment on this.)
That attrition of Japanese pilots continued through the Guadalcanal campaign. By the time we get to the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot (Battle of the Philippine Sea), the loss of some 350 Japanese planes was not just a cause of a huge decline in overall Japanese pilot competence, but also a symptom of a decline that had already occurred. Too many top pilots were already gone by June of 1944. Otherwise it might not have been such a one-sided "turkey shoot."

There's a note in Genda's Blade where it was mentioned that Captain Genda had to trade Saburo Sakai (who was not supposed to fly in combat) for Kaneyoshi Muto. The odd thing is that despite being China-war Veterans, neither of these highly experienced fliers had been trained for carrier operations. Both flew from land bases throughout the war. In fact, I couldn't find any 343rd veteran who had flown on carriers (edit: except Yoshio Shiga). It seems to me that the 343rd was made up out of experienced fliers but most of whom were not at the top of their flight school and had never flown on carriers.

 

[NTGray]

1941 to early 1944 seemed to be when Japanese pilots were at their peak.

I would suggest it was more like 1941-1942, and that American pilot experience, evolving combat strategy, and training of new pilots was what brought Japanese dominance to an end by the fall of 1942, at which point the supposedly "inferior" F4F Wildcat had gained the advantage over the much-hyped (but actually over-rated) A6M Zero. The improved F6F Hellcat would increase that advatage even more.

 

[Just Schmidt]

I would suggest it was more like 1941-1942, and that American pilot experience, evolving combat strategy, and training of new pilots was what brought Japanese dominance to an end by the fall of 1942, at which point the supposedly "inferior" F4F Wildcat had gained the advantage over the much-hyped (but actually over-rated) A6M Zero. The improved F6F Hellcat would increase that advatage even more.

There is the question of theaters and services.

For the IJNA I think the end of 1942 saw the sharp decline, with heavy losses in the carrier battles and sustained long range campaigns from Rabaul. the latter, in connection with which Yamamoto was shot down (IIRC), lasted into 1943, and possibly counted more for the decline of fighter pilots than the effect the phyrric victory had on the then still very efficient strike forces. I don't have the losses broken up in fighters, torpedo bombers and dive bombers.

For the IJAF it was possibly throughout 1943, mostly connected to New Guinea. I,m not sure to what degree they drew in new pilots from more quiet theaters, according to Bloody Shambles they still had a cadre of experienced pilots in the BCI. To what extent they were padded with green pilots, again I cannot say.

But at least I don't believe it happened at the same time for the army and the navy.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

So getting back to the main question: why did the 343rd do poorly against USAAF P-51D and P-47N aircraft? My best guess: altitude advantage. The USAAF operated at higher altitude than the Navy did, as the P-47N and P-51D had turbos. Their bombers were the B-24s and B-29s which also had turbos.

P-51Ds had two stage superchargers, not turbos

 

[CHen10]

I would suggest it was more like 1941-1942, and that American pilot experience, evolving combat strategy, and training of new pilots was what brought Japanese dominance to an end by the fall of 1942, at which point the supposedly "inferior" F4F Wildcat had gained the advantage over the much-hyped (but actually over-rated) A6M Zero. The improved F6F Hellcat would increase that advatage even more.

The Japanese Navy pilots were still really skilled in 1943. During the battles over the Solomons in 1943 and Rabaul in early 1944 the A6M was really successful against the F4U and F4F. They often came out on top in the air battles and overall their performance was actually better than the F4U and F4F in this time period

 

[Reluctant Poster]

I'll put my money on a great pilot in a so-so plane before I bet on a so-so pilot in a great plane.

Most pilots are so-so. That's why aircraft performance is so important. An excellent example is the gyro gunsight. The arguement was made that aces didn't need it. But it turned aveage pilots into Baron Von Richtofen.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Most pilots are so-so. That's why aircraft performance is so important. An excellent example is the gyro gunsight. The arguement was made that aces didn't need it. But it turned aveage pilots into Baron Von Richtofen.

I'm not arguing equipment is not important.

 

[CHen10]

But the oil could have been from shooting up a George at close range.

I ruled out this possibility because William Loflin wasn't credited with shooting down any enemy aircraft on 28 May 1945. This means he couldn't have suffered damage to his engine and radio equipment after shooting up a Shiden Kai at close range. He was definitely damaged by the gunfire from a Shiden Kai.

a few small errors such as the picture of the heavily damaged FG-1D and saying it was flown back to base after being heavily damaged by a Shiden Kai on 22 June 1945, when the damage seen in the photo was caused another Corsair colliding into it on landing.

I can't take credit for discovering this since other people discovered it years ago.

Another error I saw was saying that the four P-47Ns on 8 August 1945 were lost due to engine failure and being hit by a B-29. This is not true. All four P-47Ns were shot down by Shiden Kais, one of the Shiden Kais being flown by Nakao Hideo. The only P-47 lost to engine failure was the one flown by Paul Lynn.

This part but more in depth:

8 August 1945

343 Kokutai N1K2-Js were credited with six USAAF fighters, one B-24 and one B-29 by ramming (J2M Raiden and N1K1/2 Shiden/Shiden-Kai Aces: 129)

Unfortunately, due to Japanese policy, victories were assigned to whole group rather than individuals starting in mid 1943 so we don't know entirely who was credited with the victories. K Osuo does state that Nakao Hideo was credited with an F6F and P-51 while flying with 343 Kokutai and in Genda's Blade on page 167 Nakao describes shooting up a P-51 on 8 August 1945. When K Osuo said that Nakao was credited with a P-51 he was definitely referring to when Nakao shot up the P-51 on 8 August 1945 since that is the only time Nakao encountered USAAF fighters.

So what does Sakaida say? In Genda's Blade on page 166 he says:

"The 318th Fighter Group lost four Thunderbolts on this mission, three due to mechanical problems with
their pilots posted missing. F/O Jesse B. Hill, whose aircraft was hit by a phosphorus bomb, bailed out and
was rescued by a PBM Mariner.

The 507th Fighter Group lost F/O Paul Lynn when his aircraft lost power and spun into the sea in the
Tokara Island group whilst flying to Kyushu."

So 318 FG loses four P-47Ns while 507 FG loses one P-47N. By looking at the data we can see who the other pilots were:

318 FG:
318FG, 333SQ MACR: 14984 DATE: 450808 NAME: KEMPTER, HARLEY C AIRCRAFT: P-47N SERIAL NUMBER: 44-87890 LOCATION: HIME SHIMA 2 MI SW, JAPAN
318FG, 19SQ MACR: 14985 DATE: 450808 NAME: HENSLEY, LLOYD JR AIRCRAFT: P-47N SERIAL NUMBER: 44-88017 LOCATION: YAWATA, JAPAN
318FG UNKNOWN SQ MACR: 14976 DATE: 450808 NAME: HILL, JESSE B AIRCRAFT: P-47N SERIAL NUMBER: 44-88111 LOCATION: YAWATA, JAPAN
318FG, 333SQ DATE: 450808 NAME: Churchill A. MARVIN AIRCRAFT: P-47N SERIAL NUMBER: 44-88158 LOCATION: Ariake Bay

507 FG:
507FG UNKNOWN SQ MACR: 14829 DATE: 450808 NAME: LYNN, PAUL P AIRCRAFT: P-47N SERIAL NUMBER: 44-88090 LOCATION: SUWANOSE SHIMA 50 MI, JAPAN

According to Sakaida in Genda's Blade none of these were shot down by 343 Kokutai so let's see the evidence:

1. For Harley C Kempter's MACR it says he bailed out due to engine failure 2 miles southwest of Hime Shima. 2 miles southwest of Hime Shima is very near Yawata so he crashed in close proximity to Yawata. The MACR does say engine failure and there is no doubt it was engine failure but the chances of it being a mechanical problem are almost zero. The P-47Ns met the 343 Kokutai N1K2s enroute to Yawata and as soon as they arrived at Yawata. There was never a moment where they were flying over Yawata and they weren't engaging with the 343 Kokutai. In other words, if you crashed at Yawata, or in the vicinity of Yawata, you 100% engaged with the 343 Kokutai on this day. Kempter crashed near Yawata so he definitely engaged with the 343 Kokutai. This means he crashed after suffering an engine failure either during or shortly after combat with the 343 Kokutai. Of course it's possible it was mechanical but due to the fact he would have been involved in a dogfight with the 343 Kokutai and he crashed because of a damaged engine, it is certain he crashed because of engine failure caused by bullets from a Shiden Kai.

2. Lloyd Henley (Hensley?) Jr.'s MACR doesn't mention engine failure anywhere, it just says he was observed in his parachute. His P-47N also crashed at Yawata and as mentioned previously, the P-47Ns met the 343 Kokutai N1K2s enroute to Yawata and as soon as they arrived at Yawata. There was never a moment where they were flying over Yawata and they weren't engaging with the 343 Kokutai. In other words, if you crashed at Yawata, or in the vicinity of Yawata, you 100% engaged with the 343 Kokutai on this day. This means he Lloyd Henley engaged with the 343 Kokutai and during or after the dogfight he was forced to bail out. Clearly he was shot down by 343 N1K2s. Lloyd G. HENLEY Jr. was captured and sent to Seibu A/D HQ. He seemed to have been executed in Aburayama on Aug. 15.

3. Jesse B Hill's MACR is not accessible so we can't see what the official cause of his loss is. Sakaida states he was hit by a bomb and then bailed out and was rescued. The location of his crash is also Yawata so he definitely engaged with the 343 Kokutai because if you crashed at Yawata, or in the vicinity of Yawata, you 100% engaged with the 343 Kokutai on this day. This doesn't rule out the possibility of him being hit by a bomb though. It's possible that during the engagement he really was accidently hit by a bomb, but that seems very unlikely. Jesse Hill survived the encounter and if he had been hit by a bomb his P-47 would most likely have exploded in mid air but his aircraft was destroyed after it crashed offshore Yawata. His crash is more consistent with being hit by bullets rather than a bomb which is why this is a victory for the 343 Kokutai.

4. Marvin A Churchill doesn't have an MACR so we don't know what the cause of his crash is. Some sources say he was shot down and other say engine failure. His crash location was Ariake bay and so he crashed either enroute to Yawata or during the dogfight with the 343 Kokutai the battle moved to Ariake bay which is in the vicinity of Yawata. Since he would have engaged with the 343 Kokutai and he crashed during or after the dogfight with the Shiden Kais, he was another 343 Kokutai victory.

5. Finally, there is Paul Lynn. He crashed at Suwanose shima, an island south of Kyushu and nowhere near Yawata. He crashed while flying to the target area and so never engaged with enemy aircraft, and in his MACR, it says he fell back all of a sudden and spiraled into the sea. There is no mention of flak or any enemy garrison so the cause of his crash was definitely a mechanical engine failure.

Suzaki Shigeo rammed the B-29 "Nip Clipper" 42-63512 from the 482BS 9BG over Dazaifu and was killed while the bomber crashed at Iki Shima. The pilot of the B-29, George Keller was killed while ten members of his crew were sent to Tokyo and returned home after the war.

The P-47s did shoot down nine N1K2s with a tenth N1K2 flown by Suzaki crashing after his ramming attack. The details of the P-47 victories are mentioned in Genda's Blade. The final score of the day between the N1K2s and P-47s was 4:9. This is impressive when you consider that the N1K2s were greatly outnumbered and were fighting at the P-47s optimal altitude. What's interesting is that Nakao Hideo was credited with a P-51 but in reality his victim was a P-47. Mixing up P-47s and P-51s was very common by the Japanese and the 343 Kokutai themselves did this previously.

 

[Greg Boeser]

The quality of the Japanese pilots towards the end of the war definitely explains why even the 343 Kokutai struggled, I'm just surprised they struggled THAT much.



1941 to early 1944 seemed to be when Japanese pilots were at their peak. Pilots such as Sasai, Ota, Hato, Nishizawa, Takatsuka, Okumura, Endo, Oki, etc. were all killed by the time 1945 came along and so couldn't fly the Shiden-Kai with the 343 Kokutai.

If anything this makes the 318 Fighter Group's comments on 28 May 1945 even more baffling!

Japanese commanders were already complaining about the quality of replacement pilots by late 1942. One major complaint being lack of hours on type. This is not surprising as A6M and Ki-43 production was barely keeping up with attrition. A quick look at the unit histories in Hata's Japanese Fighter Aces books shows second line units continued to operate obsolete aircraft like A5M and Ki-27 into 1943.

 

[AerialTorpedoDude69]

I ruled out this possibility because William Loflin wasn't credited with shooting down any enemy aircraft on 28 May 1945. This means he couldn't have suffered damage to his engine and radio equipment after shooting up a Shiden Kai at close range. He was definitely damaged by the gunfire from a Shiden Kai.



I can't take credit for discovering this since other people discovered it years ago.




This part but more in depth:

8 August 1945

343 Kokutai N1K2-Js were credited with six USAAF fighters, one B-24 and one B-29 by ramming (J2M Raiden and N1K1/2 Shiden/Shiden-Kai Aces: 129)

Unfortunately, due to Japanese policy, victories were assigned to whole group rather than individuals starting in mid 1943 so we don't know entirely who was credited with the victories. K Osuo does state that Nakao Hideo was credited with an F6F and P-51 while flying with 343 Kokutai and in Genda's Blade on page 167 Nakao describes shooting up a P-51 on 8 August 1945. When K Osuo said that Nakao was credited with a P-51 he was definitely referring to when Nakao shot up the P-51 on 8 August 1945 since that is the only time Nakao encountered USAAF fighters.

So what does Sakaida say? In Genda's Blade on page 166 he says:

"The 318th Fighter Group lost four Thunderbolts on this mission, three due to mechanical problems with
their pilots posted missing. F/O Jesse B. Hill, whose aircraft was hit by a phosphorus bomb, bailed out and
was rescued by a PBM Mariner.

The 507th Fighter Group lost F/O Paul Lynn when his aircraft lost power and spun into the sea in the
Tokara Island group whilst flying to Kyushu."

So 318 FG loses four P-47Ns while 507 FG loses one P-47N. By looking at the data we can see who the other pilots were:

318 FG:
318FG, 333SQ MACR: 14984 DATE: 450808 NAME: KEMPTER, HARLEY C AIRCRAFT: P-47N SERIAL NUMBER: 44-87890 LOCATION: HIME SHIMA 2 MI SW, JAPAN
318FG, 19SQ MACR: 14985 DATE: 450808 NAME: HENSLEY, LLOYD JR AIRCRAFT: P-47N SERIAL NUMBER: 44-88017 LOCATION: YAWATA, JAPAN
318FG UNKNOWN SQ MACR: 14976 DATE: 450808 NAME: HILL, JESSE B AIRCRAFT: P-47N SERIAL NUMBER: 44-88111 LOCATION: YAWATA, JAPAN
318FG, 333SQ DATE: 450808 NAME: Churchill A. MARVIN AIRCRAFT: P-47N SERIAL NUMBER: 44-88158 LOCATION: Ariake Bay

507 FG:
507FG UNKNOWN SQ MACR: 14829 DATE: 450808 NAME: LYNN, PAUL P AIRCRAFT: P-47N SERIAL NUMBER: 44-88090 LOCATION: SUWANOSE SHIMA 50 MI, JAPAN

According to Sakaida in Genda's Blade none of these were shot down by 343 Kokutai so let's see the evidence:

1. For Harley C Kempter's MACR it says he bailed out due to engine failure 2 miles southwest of Hime Shima. 2 miles southwest of Hime Shima is very near Yawata so he crashed in close proximity to Yawata. The MACR does say engine failure and there is no doubt it was engine failure but the chances of it being a mechanical problem are almost zero. The P-47Ns met the 343 Kokutai N1K2s enroute to Yawata and as soon as they arrived at Yawata. There was never a moment where they were flying over Yawata and they weren't engaging with the 343 Kokutai. In other words, if you crashed at Yawata, or in the vicinity of Yawata, you 100% engaged with the 343 Kokutai on this day. Kempter crashed near Yawata so he definitely engaged with the 343 Kokutai. This means he crashed after suffering an engine failure either during or shortly after combat with the 343 Kokutai. Of course it's possible it was mechanical but due to the fact he would have been involved in a dogfight with the 343 Kokutai and he crashed because of a damaged engine, it is certain he crashed because of engine failure caused by bullets from a Shiden Kai.

2. Lloyd Henley (Hensley?) Jr.'s MACR doesn't mention engine failure anywhere, it just says he was observed in his parachute. His P-47N also crashed at Yawata and as mentioned previously, the P-47Ns met the 343 Kokutai N1K2s enroute to Yawata and as soon as they arrived at Yawata. There was never a moment where they were flying over Yawata and they weren't engaging with the 343 Kokutai. In other words, if you crashed at Yawata, or in the vicinity of Yawata, you 100% engaged with the 343 Kokutai on this day. This means he Lloyd Henley engaged with the 343 Kokutai and during or after the dogfight he was forced to bail out. Clearly he was shot down by 343 N1K2s. Lloyd G. HENLEY Jr. was captured and sent to Seibu A/D HQ. He seemed to have been executed in Aburayama on Aug. 15.

3. Jesse B Hill's MACR is not accessible so we can't see what the official cause of his loss is. Sakaida states he was hit by a bomb and then bailed out and was rescued. The location of his crash is also Yawata so he definitely engaged with the 343 Kokutai because if you crashed at Yawata, or in the vicinity of Yawata, you 100% engaged with the 343 Kokutai on this day. This doesn't rule out the possibility of him being hit by a bomb though. It's possible that during the engagement he really was accidently hit by a bomb, but that seems very unlikely. Jesse Hill survived the encounter and if he had been hit by a bomb his P-47 would most likely have exploded in mid air but his aircraft was destroyed after it crashed offshore Yawata. His crash is more consistent with being hit by bullets rather than a bomb which is why this is a victory for the 343 Kokutai.

4. Marvin A Churchill doesn't have an MACR so we don't know what the cause of his crash is. Some sources say he was shot down and other say engine failure. His crash location was Ariake bay and so he crashed either enroute to Yawata or during the dogfight with the 343 Kokutai the battle moved to Ariake bay which is in the vicinity of Yawata. Since he would have engaged with the 343 Kokutai and he crashed during or after the dogfight with the Shiden Kais, he was another 343 Kokutai victory.

5. Finally, there is Paul Lynn. He crashed at Suwanose shima, an island south of Kyushu and nowhere near Yawata. He crashed while flying to the target area and so never engaged with enemy aircraft, and in his MACR, it says he fell back all of a sudden and spiraled into the sea. There is no mention of flak or any enemy garrison so the cause of his crash was definitely a mechanical engine failure.

Suzaki Shigeo rammed the B-29 "Nip Clipper" 42-63512 from the 482BS 9BG over Dazaifu and was killed while the bomber crashed at Iki Shima. The pilot of the B-29, George Keller was killed while ten members of his crew were sent to Tokyo and returned home after the war.

The P-47s did shoot down nine N1K2s with a tenth N1K2 flown by Suzaki crashing after his ramming attack. The details of the P-47 victories are mentioned in Genda's Blade. The final score of the day between the N1K2s and P-47s was 4:9. This is impressive when you consider that the N1K2s were greatly outnumbered and were fighting at the P-47s optimal altitude. What's interesting is that Nakao Hideo was credited with a P-51 but in reality his victim was a P-47. Mixing up P-47s and P-51s was very common by the Japanese and the 343 Kokutai themselves did this previously.

It sounds as if you believe the 507th AG's officers may have been trying to minimize their fighter-to-fighter losses? It's possible. At the end of a day, if no one saw a pilot crash or get shot down, who's to say they didn't have mechanical problems?

I believe that there were two kinds of phosphorus bomb that was used against US bomber formations: a rocket carrying phosphor-coated shrapnel and a phosphorous fragmentation bomb, which was dropped from above onto bomber formations. Neither was designed for use against fighters. The Shiden Kai had racks for mounting the rockets.

I am skeptical that the Shidens could have gotten that far above the P-47s to have dropped a bomb. It sounds like the rockets were used, if they were actually used in this way against fighters.

Overall, your assessment is excellent and given the information you've provided, it does seem that ~four P-47 pilots were shot down that day by the 343rd. Given that the 343rd was outnumbered and out of their optimal performance envelope, 4:9 is a good accounting.

P-51Ds had two stage superchargers, not turbos

This is the second time I've made this error. Thanks for the correction.

 

[CHen10]

It sounds as if you believe the 507th AG's officers may have been trying to minimize their fighter-to-fighter losses? It's possible. At the end of a day, if no one saw a pilot crash or get shot down, who's to say they didn't have mechanical problems?

I believe that there were two kinds of phosphorus bomb that was used against US bomber formations: a rocket carrying phosphor-coated shrapnel and a phosphorous fragmentation bomb, which was dropped from above onto bomber formations. Neither was designed for use against fighters. The Shiden Kai had racks for mounting the rockets.

I am skeptical that the Shidens could have gotten that far above the P-47s to have dropped a bomb. It sounds like the rockets were used, if they were actually used in this way against fighters.

Overall, your assessment is excellent and given the information you've provided, it does seem that ~four P-47 pilots were shot down that day by the 343rd. Given that the 343rd was outnumbered and out of their optimal performance envelope, 4:9 is a good accounting.

This is the second time I've made this error. Thanks for the correction.

The 507 FG loss that day was definitely a mechanical failure and so they were right to say that in the report.

For 318 FG, the only P-47 which was officially stated as being lost to engine failure was Harley Kempter. The other three MACRs make no mention of engine failure.

So the 507 FG said they lost one P-47 to mechanical engine failure and they were correct in saying that.

The 318 FG said that Harley Kempter was lost to engine failure but it was a failure caused by gunfire not mechanical. The other three P-47s don't have a known cause of their crash so the only example of them actively trying to minimise fighter to fighter losses was the loss of Harley Kempter.

Going back to William Loflin, since he made no claims, he couldn't have been damaged by debris from a Shiden Kai after shooting it down. His windshield was covered in oil and his radio was no longer working. I'm not that knowledgeable in ballistics or bullet damage but do you think that the 20mm cannons from a Shiden Kai could realistically cause the windscreen of a P-47 to be covered in oil and also damage the radio system? Finally if you had to guess would you say the P-47 was scrapped after or not?

I guess you could also consider this another error in Genda's Blade. It says not a single Thunderbolt was hit but clearly there was.

Henry Sakaida is of course an excellent author, I have loads of his books and he is someone I aspire to be like. But Sakaida himself stated in Genda's Blade that the objective is to find the truth.

 

[AerialTorpedoDude69]

The 507 FG loss that day was definitely a mechanical failure and so they were right to say that in the report.

For 318 FG, the only P-47 which was officially stated as being lost to engine failure was Harley Kempter. The other three MACRs make no mention of engine failure.

So the 507 FG said they lost one P-47 to mechanical engine failure and they were correct in saying that.

The 318 FG said that Harley Kempter was lost to engine failure but it was a failure caused by gunfire not mechanical. The other three P-47s don't have a known cause of their crash so the only example of them actively trying to minimise fighter to fighter losses was the loss of Harley Kempter.

Going back to William Loflin, since he made no claims, he couldn't have been damaged by debris from a Shiden Kai after shooting it down. His windshield was covered in oil and his radio was no longer working. I'm not that knowledgeable in ballistics or bullet damage but do you think that the 20mm cannons from a Shiden Kai could realistically cause the windscreen of a P-47 to be covered in oil and also damage the radio system? Finally if you had to guess would you say the P-47 was scrapped after or not?

I guess you could also consider this another error in Genda's Blade. It says not a single Thunderbolt was hit but clearly there was.

Henry Sakaida is of course an excellent author, I have loads of his books and he is someone I aspire to be like. But Sakaida himself stated in Genda's Blade that the objective is to find the truth.

Interesting, thanks again for your research!

Do you know which source Sakaida used for the 8th of August? I'll try to dig the original source up later to see what it said. My guess is that the error was a result of duplication rather than misattribution.

But given that the Thunderbolt had a per-mission loss rate of 0.07%, including mechanical failures, losing four/five on one mission is incredibly uncommon and you are certainly correct that most of these losses were caused by combat damage.

A direct hit by a Type 99 Model 2 20mm shell IIRC was normally enough to write off an R-2800, although there were plenty of cases of the engine continuing to run after getting hit. The Type 99 was based on the Oerlikon 20mm FF-L cannon, which did not fire the most destructive shells and had middling velocity. So it wasn't unheard of for an R-2800 to take a direct hit and keep flying (raggedly, with some cylinders out).

Many 20mm cannon (IIRC and I hope someone here has better knowledge than I) were primed to explode at a certain range. This might have been electrically primed ammo, though. Type 99 shells were percussion primed. But if they did explode at a set range, the fragmentation effect also could have severed an oil line without destroying the aircraft.

In Loflin's case, it's possible he was covered in oil while chasing a damaged Shiden Kai. But I agree with you, the most likely scenario is that he took a hit from something.