Required headwind for carrier aircraft launch?

NTGray · Nov 22, 2019

Just watched the movie "Midway" and thought it was generally pretty good, but I question one scene where an Enterprise SBD went for a swim after takeoff because the headwind was too low. It is my understanding that there is somebody who is tasked with watching over such details and making sure that the ship is moving fast enough to get sufficient wind over the bow, and that such a crash simply was not possible except in a case of gross negligence. Is there anybody here with specific book knowledge or actual carrier experience who can tell me whether I am correct?

pinsog · Nov 22, 2019

Hello. I saw that movie last week, if I hadn't been with someone else I would have left. They got the names right, it happened in the pacific between the US and Japan. That is about all they got right. How much wind you need depends on each aircraft, how much deck they have and how heavy they are loaded. A lightly loaded Zero needs much less deck and wind than a Wildcat. An early model Kate with a torpedo needed every foot and every knot of wind possible, I imagine a Devastator with a torpedo was the same way.

Put the movie Midway in the same category as Star Trek, Star Wars and Bugs Bunny (although I could believe in a talking rabbit over most of the crap in that movie)

NTGray · Nov 22, 2019

Eh, the details were mostly right (and they used CGI to create real WWII ships, which they couldn't do in the 1976 version), but there was an awful lot of important stuff left out. Like Admiral Fletcher never being mentioned. As one reviewer wrote "History buffs need not apply."
But that still leaves the question of whether there is a person specifically tasked with making sure that important details such as the bow wind speed are within the required range. Carriers had an LSO for landings. . .did they have the equivalent of a "TSO" for take-offs? Or was that on the captain?

RCAFson · Nov 22, 2019

NTGray said:
Just watched the movie "Midway" and thought it was generally pretty good, but I question one scene where an Enterprise SBD went for a swim after takeoff because the headwind was too low. It is my understanding that there is somebody who is tasked with watching over such details and making sure that the ship is moving fast enough to get sufficient wind over the bow, and that such a crash simply was not possible except in a case of gross negligence. Is there anybody here with specific book knowledge or actual carrier experience who can tell me whether I am correct?

Lundstrom's two volumes of First Team, touches upon this. AIUI, aircraft were loaded and spotted on deck according the expected surface winds and carrier speed, with a healthy reserve to ensure that aircraft had sufficient wind over the deck for their TO weight and deck spot location. However, wind could be variable and aircraft didn't always produce rated TO power as pilots sometimes made mistakes, and/or suffered engine failure and/or neglected to use the correct flap settings and/or prop pitch etc.

NTGray · Nov 22, 2019

RCAFson said:
Lundstrom's two volumes of First Team, touches upon this. AIUI, aircraft were loaded and spotted on deck according the expected surface winds and carrier speed, with a healthy reserve to ensure that aircraft had sufficient wind over the deck for their TO weight and deck spot location. However, wind could be variable and aircraft didn't always produce rated TO power as pilots sometimes made mistakes, and/or suffered engine failure and/or neglected to use the correct flap settings and/or prop pitch etc.

Right. Wind can be fickle. But is/was there a person specifically tasked with confirming that the average bow wind speed was in fact correct? (In the movie scene the problem was specifically named as the wind speed, not an engine issue.)

pinsog · Nov 22, 2019

RCAFson is correct and detailed it out nicely

pinsog · Nov 22, 2019

NTGray said:
Right. Wind can be fickle. But is/was there a person specifically tasked with confirming that the average bow wind speed was in fact correct? (In the movie scene the problem was specifically named as the wind speed, not an engine issue.)

I guess wind could fail, but the entire battle group would turn into the wind and the carrier would go to full speed. They would know which way the wind is blowing and the captain gives the order "turn into the wind and prepare to launch".

RCAFson · Nov 22, 2019

NTGray said:
Right. Wind can be fickle. But is/was there a person specifically tasked with confirming that the average bow wind speed was in fact correct? (In the movie scene the problem was specifically named as the wind speed, not an engine issue.)

There was a flying officer who tracked wind over deck, AIUI, but the wind could drop or change direction after a pilot has committed to TO.

Admiral Beez · Nov 22, 2019

NTGray said:
Eh, the details were mostly right (and they used CGI to create real WWII ships, which they couldn't do in the 1976 version),

CGI for ships okay, but I prefer the Dunkirk movie's use of real aircraft, with R/C models when necessary.

Every aircraft at Midway still has flying examples or replicas today, so there's no reason they couldn't use those, with some editing to increase their number.

NTGray · Nov 22, 2019

RCAFson said:
There was a flying officer who tracked wind over deck,

That is what I assumed but wanted to confirm. Thank you.
(In the movie, Lt. Best realizes halfway down the deck that there's not enough wind, barely manages to stay airborne, then tries to warn the ship before his wingman takes off. The wingman doesn't make it. Sorry if that constitutes a spoiler for anybody.)

pbehn · Nov 22, 2019

Surely you cant approve an aircraft load for take off that requires a headwind that may not exist? I know the RN had problems in the Med where there just wasnt enough room to sail for long into a headwind or anywhere at all which wrecked a lot of sea fires. In peace time you can cancel operations but in a comabat situation you cant just refuse to "play". I think the Dolittle raid required a head wind but they weren't even supposed to be carrier aircraft to start with and wernt required to land. In peace time or war time training I could understand some things not being done without a head wind but outside of that what else do you do?

jetcal1 · Nov 22, 2019

pbehn said:
Surely you cant approve an aircraft load for take off that requires a headwind that may not exist? I know the RN had problems in the Med where there just wasnt enough room to sail for long into a headwind or anywhere at all which wrecked a lot of sea fires. In peace time you can cancel operations but in a comabat situation you cant just refuse to "play". I think the Dolittle raid required a head wind but they weren't even supposed to be carrier aircraft to start with and wernt required to land. In peace time or war time training I could understand some things not being done without a head wind but outside of that what else do you do?

Until the advent of the catapult, every aircraft required some wind over the deck. By the time the heavier jets arrived the Brits had fortunately come up with the steam catapult which meant that if you were willing to sacrifice some airframe life you could cat with zero wind over the deck.
(Full disclosure, I've never been onboard a CV/CVN that couldn't at least make 30 knots in no wind conditions. Although for an oil-burner that had to be expensive.)

pbehn · Nov 22, 2019

jetcal1 said:
Until the advent of the catapult, every aircraft required some wind over the deck. By the time the heavier jets arrived the Brits had fortunately come up with the steam catapult which meant that if you were willing to sacrifice some airframe life you could cat with zero wind over the deck.
(Full disclosure, I've never been onboard a CV/CVN that couldn't at least make 30 knots in no wind conditions. Although for an oil-burner that had to be expensive.)

I believe it was always assumed that the carrier would be underway at sea which is the normal condition for a carrier, if it wasn't then that creates a few problems.

Conslaw · Nov 23, 2019

Admiral Beez said:
CGI for ships okay, but I prefer the Dunkirk movie's use of real aircraft, with R/C models when necessary.

Every aircraft at Midway still has flying examples or replicas today, so there's no reason they couldn't use those, with some editing to increase their number.

Well, no, there are no flying TBDs. As far as Japanese aircraft are concerned, there are only a few actual Zeros, and no actual Kates or Vals. The "replicas" from "Tora Tora Tora" look less realistic than the CGI aircraft.

fubar57 · Nov 23, 2019

......which were converted AT-6 Texans

jetcal1 · Nov 23, 2019

pbehn said:
I believe it was always assumed that the carrier would be underway at sea which is the normal condition for a carrier, if it wasn't then that creates a few problems.

I believe that at there has always been a zero wind over deck (WOD) cat requirement for every carrier aircraft since the steam cats arrived.

Please keep in mind that the cats installed at NAWCAD Lakehurst are not going to have a favorable wind every time they do any testing.

Edit: Changed favorable wind from "anytime" to "every time".

pbehn · Nov 23, 2019

jetcal1 said:
I believe that at there has always been a zero wind over deck (WOD) cat requirement for every carrier aircraft since the steam cats arrived.

Please keep in mind that the cats installed at NAWCAD Lakehurst are not going to have a favorable wind anytime they do any testing.

I was only really considering WW2 without catapults. TBH

IdahoRenegade · Nov 23, 2019

Conslaw said:
Well, no, there are no flying TBDs. As far as Japanese aircraft are concerned, there are only a few actual Zeros, and no actual Kates or Vals. The "replicas" from "Tora Tora Tora" look less realistic than the CGI aircraft.

I'm not so sure about that in this case. The Japanese CGI planes were terrible-they didn't even have a fixed gear plane (no matter how bad the graphics) to portray a Val. Not a single Wildcat that I saw, and it looked like (need to see it again) that they used the same model to represent the Dauntless and Devastator.

jetcal1 · Nov 23, 2019

pbehn said:
I was only really considering WW2 without catapults. TBH

Then, I would say no such luck with anything before the Essex class.

However, the H4 series installed on the Essex class had to be capable of a literal no-wind launch as they were launching F6F's out of the hangar bay which would mean a much shorter Cat stroke (Restricted by width of hangar bay) and into a 90 degree crosswind.

So, I'm going to say yes! The Essex class could launch a WWII vintage piston engine airplane in zero wind conditions to probably to around 75-90 knots or so depending on if it was in the hangar bay and weight of the aircraft. (I'd imagine the H4 on a CVE could probably make easy work of an FM-2!)

(Please keep in mind, this is only based on what I've seen in various newsreels and being aware of the H4, I'm not an expert on catapults, not did I stay at a Holiday Inn.)

GrauGeist · Nov 24, 2019

Catapaults were in use during WWII (though not stream powered) and in regards to the movie Midway, how long is a regular person willing to sit in a theater to watch a movie?
In order to fully represent the battle in a historical context, it would require far longer than a typical movie-goer is willing to spend.

I see griping about the lack of F4Fs, but where were the B-17s, B-26s, F2As, SB2Us and PBYs?

As far as the IJN aircraft, there were also D4Y1Cs, E13As, E8Ns and E11As involved - so, where were they?

The movie is valuable both for entertainment as well as shedding light on a historical event for people who may not be history-savvy.

Required headwind for carrier aircraft launch?

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