I dont know I have never seen it over 87. From what I can tell though the Japanese did not have a real system of confirming kills though as other countries did, so that could explain some of it.
Rising Sun warbirds
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R Leonard
Staff Sergeant
In my experience the best place to look for production numbers for USN aircraft is the USN itself rather than what someone else, even myself, might interpret.
The best way to do that is to use the bureau numbers assigned at time of production and then just work the math. Try
http://www.history.navy.mil/download/history/app09.pdf
Further, it would appear that your sources are lumping the F4F series in with the entire FM series. The USN doesn't figure it that way. In its statistical reporting the USN considers the FM-2 to be a separate type and it's wartime results are tabulated separately. So, if you want to lump the FM-1 in with the F4Fs, okay, that gives you a total of 2636 F4F types, but there's still a separate 4777 FM-2s.
Not counting the squadrons that did their duty and spent the war on tedious, fruitless searches on patrols with no results, there were 37 USN squadrons, mostly of the VC-x variety, operating for the most part from CVEs, that shot down at least one enemy aircraft in the course of a deployment, ranging from VC-27 with 59.5/1/6 credits down to VC-11, VC-63, VC-66, and VC-86 all with 1/0/0 credits.
The FM-2 was faster and more maneuverable than its little brother, the F4F and racked up a fairly impressive performance. Combined, the squadrons engaged in combat were credited with a total of 428/37/33.5 versus total FM-2 losses of 13 to enemy aircraft and 62 to enemy AA fire. Credits break down thusly:
A6M Series - 102/5/8
D3A - 93.5/5/1
Ki-43 - 43.5/7/6
Ki-61 - 36/2/3
Ki-21 - 21/2/2
P1Y1 - 21/0/6
Ki-48 - 21/4/1
Ki-44 - 20/3/1
B6N1-2 - 14/0/1
J1N - 10/5/1
E13A - 9/0/0
B5N - 8/1/1.5
D4Y Series - 8/0/0
G4M - 7/0/1
Ki-45 - 5/3/1
Ki-46 - 2/0/0
G3M - 1/0/0
J2M - 1/0/0
Ki-57 - 1/0/0
Ki-51 - 1/0/0
Ki-27 - 1/0/0
U/I 2/E VT - 2/0/0
The last FM-2 to score was on 5 August 1945 when Lieut Eugene R Beckwith, of VC-97 off USS Makassar Strait (CVE-91), scored a P1Y1 over the East China Sea while performing CAP duties.
Regards,
Rich
Good info there.
Parmigiano
Senior Airman
Thank you Rich
Well, I have no background on the Pacific theatre, but looking at the numbers you bring, and considering that the other main fighters (F6F and F4U) were far superior to the wildcat the only possible comment is that the air battle was mere target practice!
Either the reported stats are completely wrong or the Japanese aviation was totally non existent as an Air Force.
Well, I have no background on the Pacific theatre, but looking at the numbers you bring, and considering that the other main fighters (F6F and F4U) were far superior to the wildcat the only possible comment is that the air battle was mere target practice!
Either the reported stats are completely wrong or the Japanese aviation was totally non existent as an Air Force.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
There's no denying that the Japanese did score many victories, but I think a lot of the mysticism of the Zero, IJAAF and IJN lies with the allies (mainly the US) making their opposition look tougher than they actually were. When you hear stories about the mystical Zero and really do the research and math like Rich did (thanks Rich, great job!), I think it's alleged superiority was a product of exaggeration and folklore. Comments anyone?!?
R Leonard
Staff Sergeant
I know how that works
only from the other side. I rarely comment aspects of the European war except where topics involve naval aviation. I doubt there are more than three or four books in my library that deal specifically with the war in Europe as opposed to about 240 on naval subjects of which about 140 are on naval aviation subjects. Then there's the three file cabinets full of reports and such from USN air operations in WWII. Europe in World War II is a land of mystery for me.Rich
Chocks away!
Senior Airman
They are still huge numbers and many of their victories were not comfirmed because of the relative lack of interest of the Japanese in personal victories. People here are implying that the Zero didn't stand a chance in the face of modern opposition which just isn't he caseDerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Chocks away! said:
No no one here said that. We are saying that the ZERO was not the far superior plane that everyone else likes to make it out to be. It was not, it was just a myth. The Zero was still a dangerous plane and no one denies that.
The Jug Rules!
Airman 1st Class
I finally got my numbers right( I'm terrible with japanese aircraft) It was the Ki 84 Hayate. I did not base everything that I said on the flight simulator. I read up on the aircraft, and it stated that it could outfight the p-51 and p-47.
The Ki-84 was a great plane.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Agree - I think one of their best!
Certainly better than the Zero.
I read a book recently by Saburo Sakai (hope I spelled that right) and he describes his kills (64 of them) and most of them were P-39's and 40's. Maybe some of this "myth" was developed on Army aircraft and not Navy aircraft.
The F4F had the advantage of speed, firepower, dive, and the ability to absorb damage. the zero could climb faster and turn better. Thus the American F4F pilots could choose to have combat on their terms, a major advantage.
The F4F had the advantage of speed, firepower, dive, and the ability to absorb damage. the zero could climb faster and turn better. Thus the American F4F pilots could choose to have combat on their terms, a major advantage.
cheddar cheese
Major General
How about the Ki-115? Whats the deal with that?
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
cheddar cheese said:
It was designed for Kamikaze missions - It had landing gear that could jettisoned......
http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/nakatsurugi.htm
- Thread starter
- #116
Yeah that would have sucked. Its pretty bad though when you have to waste materials in designing an aircraft for suicide missions.
- Thread starter
- #118
cheddar cheese
Major General
They should have made a plane with a huge bomb/warhead that they would fly into bomber formations and then detonate it.
R Leonard
Staff Sergeant
The Japanese actually something similar, dropping large white phosphorus bombs into allied formations. Visually spectacular, but not very effective.
Rich
Edit, somehow managed to leave out the word "not". Sorry if anyone got a wrong impression.
R
Rich
Edit, somehow managed to leave out the word "not". Sorry if anyone got a wrong impression.
R
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