Rn vs IJN

EwenS said:

Here is the breakdown of the Bikini fleet:-
5 BB - Arkansas, New York, Nevada, Pennsylvania (4 out of 5 of the oldest USN BB. Pennsylvania was only patched up after being torpedoed and nearly sinking in Aug 1945) + IJN Nagato
2 CV/CVL - Saratoga & Independence (Saratoga had been reduced to a training carrier in mid-1945 with only 1 lift and a hangar part full of classrooms)

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Lots of ships that should have become museum pieces.

Say at least Nevada, Pennsylvania, Saratoga and Independence.

None in their classes were saved.

Alan Stevens said:

Lots of ships that should have become museum pieces.

Say at least Nevada, Pennsylvania, Saratoga and Independence.

None in their classes were saved.

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So many of these larger ships were 2 ship classes with the sisters on the bottom of the ocean.

Arkansas's sister Wyoming, had been disarmed and turned into a gunnery training ship to comply with the inter-war Treaties see AB's photo above for her final configuration. New York's sister was Texas which was saved for preservation.

Nevada's was Oklahoma (which, while salvaged after PH was never reconstructed and sank while under tow to the breakers yard in 1947). Pennsylvania (badly damaged in Aug 1945 and never fully repaired) was sister of Arizona still at PH. Lexington, Sara's sister, was sunk in 1942.

Oklahoma when decommissioned Sept 1944


But there was simply no appetite to preserve more in the aftermath of a second world war in the space of 25 years. Even in the 1950s there was none. Look at the post war history of CV-6 Enterprise.

"With the commissioning of over two dozen larger and more advanced aircraft carriers by end of 1945, Enterprise was deemed surplus for the post-war needs of America's navy. She entered the New York Naval Shipyard on 18 January 1946 for deactivation and was decommissioned on 17 February 1947. In 1946, she had been scheduled to be handed over to the state of New York as a permanent memorial, but this plan was suspended in 1949.[40] Subsequent attempts were made at preserving the ship as a museum or memorial, but fund-raising efforts failed to raise enough money to buy the vessel from the Navy, and Enterprise was sold on 1 July 1958 to the Lipsett Corporation of New York City for scrapping at Kearny, New Jersey.

A promise was made to save the distinctive tripod mast for inclusion in the Naval Academy's new football stadium, but was never fulfilled; instead, a memorial plaque was installed at the base of what is still called "Enterprise Tower." Scrapping was complete as of May 1960. In 1984, a permanent "Enterprise Exhibit" was dedicated at the Naval Aviation Museum, Naval Air Station Pensacola, Florida, to house artifacts, photos, and other items of historical interest."

Immediately post-war everyone wanted to return to normality, get on with their lives and look to the bright future being promised by the politicians. It was only as veterans aged that they became nostalgic for the past and talk turned to preservation.

Independence was the odd ship out, and I've never found a reason for her selection. But, as the lead ship of her class there were some constructional differences from her surviving 7 sisters (IIRC she, like the sunk Princeton, may have lacked the cruiser side armour retained by the other surviving ships) that may have made her seem less useful in post war fleet (and most of the class did find some post war use in secondary roles or off Korea or in other navies).

From the preserve little attitude of the early post war period we now seem to have reached the opposite extreme. There always element be someone with a reason to preserve just about any old ship, aircraft, building or whatever, but they want someone else to pay for it. Attitudes change with time.

Alan Stevens said:

Lots of ships that should have become museum pieces.

Say at least Nevada, Pennsylvania, Saratoga and Independence.

None in their classes were saved.

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I think there are too many museum ships in the US to keep them all in good condition. List of museum ships of the United States military - Wikipedia. Do you really need ten battleships and five aircraft carriers? As the last of the boomers expire and WW2 becomes yet another paragraph in Gen-Z's history books, I expect many of the US' museum ships will have trouble getting funding. Look at USS Olympia (C-6), a once famous USN flagship that struggles to be relevant and thus funded in and era when no one remembers the Spanish-American War.

Admiral Beez said:

I think there are too many museum ships in the US to keep them all in good condition. List of museum ships of the United States military - Wikipedia. Do you really need ten battleships and five aircraft carriers? As the last of the boomers expire and WW2 becomes yet another paragraph in Gen-Z's history books, I expect many of the US' museum ships will have trouble getting funding. Look at USS Olympia (C-6), a once famous USN flagship that struggles to be relevant and thus funded in and era when no one remembers the Spanish-American War.

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Not helped by most major ships being separated and having a few added attractions (the almost obligatory fleet submarine) .
The above mentioned Olympia is about 1/2 of a mile from the BB New Jersey but they are in separate states on the other side of the river.
14 minutes driving time involving two interstate highways. But nobody wants to give up their own tourist attraction
I am amazed that some politician/s didn't promote moving the Iowa to her home state.

Shortround6 said:

Not helped by most major ships being separated and having a few added attractions (the almost obligatory fleet submarine) .
The above mentioned Olympia is about 1/2 of a mile from the BB New Jersey but they are in separate states on the other side of the river.
14 minutes driving time involving two interstate highways. But nobody wants to give up their own tourist attraction

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My god you're right, they're right across from one another.

Shortround6 said:

I am amazed that some politician/s didn't promote moving the Iowa to her home state.

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Let's do it! it'll create jobs as the Mississippi will need to be dredged and new locks will need to be installed from the Gulf of Mexico up to Davenport. That's 16 senators worth of pork right there, and plenty of congresspersons as well.

I expect had IJNS Yamato been captured intact that she'd be made a museum trophy rather than sank in the A-bomb tests.

Greg Boeser said:

Let's do it! it'll create jobs as the Mississippi will need to be dredged and new locks will need to be installed from the Gulf of Mexico up to Davenport. That's 16 senators worth of pork right there, and plenty of congresspersons as well.

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You forgot all the bridge work

Shortround6 said:

You forgot all the bridge work

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They're better off to keep the model.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRtkC3wc0R4
This is how the British do it better, IMO. With some notable exceptions like HMS Victory, Warrior, Trincomalee, Caroline, etc, instead of keeping rusty hulks in ports across the nation, the RN's historic ships are celebrated in models. Of course the Royal Navy goes back over four hundred years, so keeping relics from the Second World War is no more or less important than those from the Spanish Armada of 1588.


It's the only thing that gets me into the AGO, The Thomson Collection | Art Gallery of Ontario

I like the models too, they have an incredible array of aircraft carriers at the Pensacola Naval Air Museum. This is just a small sample from a trip back in 2019.

But I think there is something to be said for having the actual ships around, or at least some of them. They seem to attract a lot of visitors, does that not raise enough money to maintain them? The one in Mobile Alabama (on the way to Pensacola for us) seems to always have a big crowd, doesn't hurt that you can see it and the inevitable fleet sub and all the airplanes etc. from the highway.

That Pensacola museum is really worth a visit, it might be for the model alone but the fact that they have so many rare aircraft from all around the world, in such good / real condition (as opposed to dressed up with plastic and tin like in a lot of other museums) is really what makes it special.

Admiral Beez said:

I think there are too many museum ships in the US to keep them all in good condition. List of museum ships of the United States military - Wikipedia. Do you really need ten battleships and five aircraft carriers? As the last of the boomers expire and WW2 becomes yet another paragraph in Gen-Z's history books, I expect many of the US' museum ships will have trouble getting funding. Look at USS Olympia (C-6), a once famous USN flagship that struggles to be relevant and thus funded in and era when no one remembers the Spanish-American War.

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Based on what you posted, our museum fleet could kick the Russian Navy's small thermal exhaust port.

Models are great, but there's nothing like going aboard in order to get a feel for what the sailors lived with.

Try going on an old sailing ship. Granted men were shorter then but dang, hundreds of men on board one them for months

Thinking back to the topic at hand, had Germany and Italy been somehow neutralized in 1938, perhaps by Britain not selling out Czechoslovakia in 1938, leading to Hitler's arrest and overthrow by the army in the Oster conspiracy - Wikipedia.

Basically I want to get the Royal Navy to its maximum possible size and strength by the time Japan is becoming desperate for resources. So, it's now 1940, Germany is deep into two years of civil war with the army fighting with communists and nazis, with the German navy's projects after the two Scharnhorst class all on hold, with the entire KM fleet in disarray. Britain, France, Poland, etc. are safe for now from German invasion, with London, Paris, Moscow and Warsaw likely supporting one side or another in the German civil war. Italy's communists and anti-fascists see this as an opportunity to remove Mussolini and civil unrest breaks out. In France, where the Communist Party has been banned since the German–Soviet Non-aggression Pact in 1939, the communists also begin causing trouble anew, with help/interference from Moscow. The latter drives Mussolini closer to relations with France. In short, continental Europe and the Mediterranean is a sh#tshow from 1938 until at least early 1941.

Meanwhile by mid-1941, the Royal Navy and RAF are fresh from the rearmament rush, but with no one to counter against. The Admirals and Air Marshalls look to the Pacific where the US' negotiations with Japan are failing and where trouble looks to be brewing, and see their salvation for Exchequer justification. With FIC in French hands, albeit domestically distracted ones, Malaya and Singapore are safer. But still, Britain knows that Japan needs to either go on the offensive for resources or capitulate to the Americans. So, in April 1941 the RN announces a renewed British Pacific Fleet to operate out of Singapore, Hong Kong and Sydney, with units rotating through Ceylon, consisting of the following:

HMNB Singapore (and surrounding Malay ports)
Fast (>28 knot) Battle Squadron: KGV, PoW, Hood, Renown (replaced by DoY later 1941)
Fast CV Squadron: Ark Royal, Illustrious, Formidable, Victorious (joins later 1941)
4xCAs, 6xCLs, 20xDD, 12xSSK
HMNB Tamar (Hong Kong): 1xCA, 2xCLs, 8xDD, 12xSSK
Sydney, Australia (and other Oz/PNG/Solomons ports): Primarily RAN cruisers, plus 4xSSK, 2xCL, 6xDD

This leaves the Atlantic and Mediterranean with 5xQEs, 5xRevenge, 2xNelsons, 3xCourageous, Hermes, Eagle, plus the majority of the RN's cruisers, destroyers and submarines just in case the Continentals kick off a war. Though with no british declaration of war, and thus limited to no conscription or war spending, some of these older battleships and carriers may be placed into the reserve fleet.

At Saigon the French send: 1xCA, 2xCL, 4xDD, 4xSSK. The Dutch already have most of their fleet at the DEI, plus add additional SSKs and DDs.

What do we envision the RAF sending to Malaya? And how does Japan and the USA react to this renewal of Anglo-French-Dutch naval strength in the region?

Another angle on this, which is sort of a side argument that grew out of this main one a few times over the course of the thread, relates to aviation and specifically fighters. I was in my local model store the other day and they had a sale on some old Osprey books, and I picked up three of their titles related to the Ki-43. It's been pretty eye-opening. I'm going to start a new thread on the combat history of the Ki-43 and IJAAF especially as it relates to the RAF, and link it back to this one. It's much more extensive than I had realized.

Shortround6 said:

Not helped by most major ships being separated and having a few added attractions (the almost obligatory fleet submarine) .
The above mentioned Olympia is about 1/2 of a mile from the BB New Jersey but they are in separate states on the other side of the river.
14 minutes driving time involving two interstate highways. But nobody wants to give up their own tourist attraction
I am amazed that some politician/s didn't promote moving the Iowa to her home state.

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You can walk across the Ben Franklin Bridge, beautiful view.
But I just measured it and it is 3.6 miles on foot.
A very long walk for most people.

About 2,500 feet if you have a boat. Wonder if there are allowed launching/docking points on each shore?

The best solution might be for the curators to run a shuttle bus.

Shortround6 said:

Try going on an old sailing ship. Granted men were shorter then but dang, hundreds of men on board one them for months

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How old -- or how short -- are you, in fact?

I'm thinkin' your fire-engine was horse-drawn.

Thumpalumpacus said:

How old -- or how short -- are you, in fact?

I'm thinkin' your fire-engine was horse-drawn.

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I am about 5'11"
Been on a an old Whaler, The USS Constellation and recreated gun deck in Williamsburg (many years ago). Sometimes you can only fully stand up between the deck beams.
Visit to the Constellation was about 40 years ago, (2 restorations ago?)

265 men on this deck and the one below, no guns on lower deck. Officer quarters are much better
Picture from Wiki.

Realistically in this scenario, if the US is not in the fight they will have the capacity to supply a lot more
to Britain in the way of air and sea assets under lend lease. Larger supplies of the Wildcat along with
escort carriers from an earlier date is the first one.

Regarding old timers height, while visiting a museum in Colorado Springs (1960), one room was only civil war uniforms, equipment, rifles and wedding gowns from the settlers who came west. I was struck how short they were. Most uniforms were for men of 5 foot, 5 inches or shorter while one was a tall 5 foot 8 inches. Wedding gowns would fit women of 5 feet tall or less. I remember considering a man that size charging the enemy with the weight of the rifle and bayonet in comparison to my issue M-1 Garand.