SHOULD the P39 have been able to handle the Zero? Was it training or performance?

[pbehn]

But... but... HOW can that be SO? We have data that PROVES the P-39 was superior, especially in climb, to the the Fw-190!!!

It is quite possible for all the opinions to be correct. When you outnumber the enemy by 7 to 1 its possible you rarely see them and so proceed unmolested enjoying the controls and radio. When you meet the enemy late in the conflict and he has only a few hours training maybe you do have the upper hand. In other circumstances meeting a trained pilot on a 1 to 1 basis you are in a very bad position.

 

[buffnut453]

Just how does one start a thread here?

If you click on the top banner and scroll down below the "Recent Posts" you'll find a list of the available forums. Click on the one that best suits your needs (in this case, probably "WW2 General"). At the top right, you should find a button allowing you to create a new thread. Click that, add a title and write your message.

 

[Hansie Bloeckmann]

If you click on the top banner and scroll down below the "Recent Posts" you'll find a list of the available forums. Click on the one that best suits your needs (in this case, probably "WW2 General"). At the top right, you should find a button allowing you to create a new thread. Click that, add a title and write your message.

Thanks--Hansie

 

[Hansie Bloeckmann]

I think some of us need a Pimm's or two after that interchange

Pimm's Cup-- OK, the first round is on me--I wonder if the late Queen Victoria called her husband Albert "Bertie"-- I read somewhere that she preferred that German be spoken in her family, as well as English.. Any truth to that??

 

[CORSNING]

Deliveries of P-39Ns started in December 1942. They weren't in service in 1942.

Deliveries of the P-39N Airacobra to the USAAF began in November 1942.

The French in North Africa were supplied with P-39Ns in April 1943.
The P-39N first became operational with the USAAF in June 1943 at Guadalcanal. It is
entirely possible that it entered operational service immediately with the French.

 

[CORSNING]

P-40 was available earlier and in greater quantities than the P-39, let alone the P-51A that entered the service with RAF by June 1943.

Tomo,
Where did you get this information? The first deliveries of the P-51A that I am aware of
were in September 1943 to the 23rd Fighter Group of the 9th Air Force...?

 

[Shortround6]

And here we hit "what is a delivery"?

Test flown and signed off as accepted in Buffalo New York is a long way from any combat zone.
You have two basic ways of getting P-39s to combat zones, knocked down and crated for rail transport to a seaport.
Flown to airfield near seaport and towed to dock and cocooned for sea transport.
For Russia you can fly them to Alaska and then over the Bering strait.
For Britain, The Med and for the Pacific they went by ship.
And for the most part, had to reassembled or de-cocooned and test flown before being placed in service.
Getting P-39Ns into service in the SWP in Dec of 1942 seems just about impossible.

 

[tomo pauk]

Tomo,
Where did you get this information? The first deliveries of the P-51A that I am aware of
were in September 1943 to the 23rd Fighter Group of the 9th Air Force...?

From 'America's hundred thousand', pg. 332. It says that 50 Mustang II and one A-36 join the RAF in June 1943.

 

[Peter Gunn]

Germans were using Bf-109s???

Smarty pants...

 

[Peter Gunn]

And here we hit "what is a delivery"?

Test flown and signed off as accepted in Buffalo New York is a long way from any combat zone.
You have two basic ways of getting P-39s to combat zones, knocked down and crated for rail transport to a seaport.
Flown to airfield near seaport and towed to dock and cocooned for sea transport.
For Russia you can fly them to Alaska and then over the Bering strait.
For Britain, The Med and for the Pacific they went by ship.
And for the most part, had to reassembled or de-cocooned and test flown before being placed in service.
Getting P-39Ns into service in the SWP in Dec of 1942 seems just about impossible.

Agreed, which is why I have a hard time with Mr. P-39's assertion of:
""Gestation" was very short, production began in December '42 and P-39Ns were serving that same month in New Guinea."

I don't see how they could get from Buffalo to New Guinea in like, two weeks?

 

[Hansie Bloeckmann]

Strange because it was not commonly known that Elizabeth called her husband Bertie until the film was shown I didn't know, you are educated by Hollywood. That whole post acts as a summary of the movie, the director would be proud.

Actually, I looked up the Royal families on Wikipedia- Albert, later King George V1- was called "Bertie" by his family members, his wife was named Elizabeth, as was their oldest of two daughters, now the present Monarch- but apparently was called "Libideth" by her loving father, Albert.

 

[pbehn]

Actually, I looked up the Royal families on Wikipedia- Albert, later King George V1- was called "Bertie" by his family members, his wife was named Elizabeth, as was their oldest of two daughters, now the present Monarch- but apparently was called "Libideth" by her loving father, Albert.

Thanks for the information, always nice to know who my head of state is, Ive just realised she is the only one I've ever had, so hopefully I wont forget. Did they have any children or grandchildren? Does this have anything to do with P-39s

 

[P-39 Expert]

Agreed, which is why I have a hard time with Mr. P-39's assertion of:
""Gestation" was very short, production began in December '42 and P-39Ns were serving that same month in New Guinea."

I don't see how they could get from Buffalo to New Guinea in like, two weeks?

I'm quoting Edwards Park who was in the AAF and served at Port Moresby, NG. In his book "Angels Twenty" he states that he arrived in NG in December '42 and was issued a brand new P-39N. He's a well known writer and journalist who wrote for Aviation Week and others. Not beyond the realm of possibility, those P-39Ns were just the next version on the production line and their new feature was a newer version of the V-1710. When the last P-39-M rolled out the first N was right behind it. Right after a quick check and test flight they shipped or flew out. At that point in time Bell was rolling out 400 P-39s per month. They had already manufactured 2000+ and pretty much had the process down.
By the way, Park also wrote that his squadron carried 110 gallon drop tanks vs the 75 gallon tanks in all the photos.

 

[Stig1207]

23rd Fighter Group of the 9th airforce???
The 23rd were the former 'Flying Tigers' and with the 14th AAF, weren't they?

 

[P-39 Expert]

The increased boost was certainly used on the Fw 190A8, going from previous limit of 1.42 ata to 1.58 or 1.65. Against the previous climbs done at 2400 rpm, the climb at 2700 rpm using as much of the boost as possible reduced time to 8 km by more than 1/4. Shaded areas on the speed & climb graph show performance when over-boost ('Erhoehte Notleistung') was used. Text also notes that overboost via C3 injection was allowed for both S/C speeds, allowed up to 10 minutes. Hopefuly your German is up to the speed, if not the 3rd pic is the translated perf graph:


View attachment 486624 View attachment 486627 View attachment 486628

Look at your date on the bottom of the third graph: Oct 25 '44. And these graphs typically are prior to the actual production models since they were testing prototypes. You may not agree with me that the Luftwaffe was beaten in March '44, but you should have no doubt that that they were done by October '44. If the production machines actually saw combat it would be a minor miracle.

 

[tomo pauk]

Look at your date on the bottom of the third graph: Oct 25 '44. And these graphs typically are prior to the actual production models since they were testing prototypes.

Last sentence is just your opinion - there is plenty of graphs for any given fighter that were a result of series-produced machine flihgt-tested.
This is for the increased emergency power for the Fw 190A8 from here (my bold; I'll post the facsimile of the original doc):
Starting from July 1944 all Fw 190 A-8 aircraft will be equipped with "increased emergency". By overridding the supercharger boost regulator, boost pressures are increased at take-off and emergency power in low supercharger setting from 1,42 ata to 1,58 ata and at the high supercharger setting from 1,42 to 1,65 ata. Thus an increase of speed up to 13.6 mph (22 km/h) is obtained with low supercharger operation and up to 15.5 mph (25 km/h) with high supercharger operation. The maximum operating time for increased emergency is limited to 10 minutes due to thermal reasons.
(Ab Juli 1944 werden sämtliche Flugzeuge der Baureihe Fw 190 A-8 mit "erhöhter Notleistung" ausgerüstet. Durch Eingriff in den Ladedruckregler wird der Ladedruck der Start- und Notleistung im Bodenladerbetrieb von 1,42 ata auf 1,58 ata, im Höhenladerbetrieb von 1,42 ata auf 1,65 ata heraufgesetzt. Hierdurch wird ein Geschwindigkeitsgewinn bis 22 km/h bei Bodenladerbetrieb und bis zu 25 km/h im Höhenladerbetrieb erzielt.; (sich Flugleistungen Bl. 15). Die höchstzulässige Betriebsdauer für erhöhte Notleistung ist aus thermischen Gründen 10 Minuten begrenzt.)

You may not agree with me that the Luftwaffe was beaten in March '44, but you should have no doubt that that they were done by October '44. If the production machines actually saw combat it would be a minor miracle.

Let's not mix the state of this or that airforce with capabilities and usability of this or that fighter.
Fw 190A set the bar high in 1941-42 when it is about fighter aircraft, and was still going strong in 1943. P-39N, while a decent fighter, didn't set any bars worth reaching, even if it was faster than Soviet or Japanese fighters.

 

[P-39 Expert]

First off, you're welcome, no harm no foul, hope you don't take offense to anything I type, it's not intended to belittle or insult.

Uh, there are guys here far more able than I to address some of your points above. Actually, I think they already have but YMMV.

Again though, a P-39 ( any ) able to climb faster than say a P-38 to 25,000'? If that were so why weren't they used in New Guinea for that purpose? Or Guadalcanal?

As for the air war being over for fighters by March of '44... Perhaps drgondog or bobbysocks can enlighten you on that a bit, seeing as how their fathers were Mustang pilots at the time.

Lt. Runnels can set you straight on that as well.

I will unequivocally call bollocks on your contention of this myself as my uncle on my mothers side ( her brother ) was there at the time in Mustangs as well, if he were still alive I believe he'd have quite a good laugh ( or scoff ) at that statement.

Thanks for your comments. Let me rephrase, I have stated that the air war for fighters was over in March '44. I should have said that the Luftwaffe (and the Japanese) were beaten by March '44. In other words, very little opposition by the Germans and Japanese fighters after that date. No the war wasn't over, but you were very unlikely to encounter enemy fighters after March '44. Plenty of bomber missions, escort, ground attack, flak, ground fire etc. left, but not many enemy fighters.

Regarding P-39 climb, you must compare airplanes that were in combat service at the same time. Otherwise we are debating "What if Napoleon had B-52 bombers". The P-39-N in 1943 was the fastest climbing plane we had. Contemporary P-38s were G and F models and it took them 11 minutes to get to 25000'.
Regarding New Guinea in '42, interception was exactly what they were there for. The Japanese had bases all along the north coast of NG and were bombing Port Moresby daily, weather permitting. Those P-39s got there in late April '42 and were immediately in combat with their mission to intercept Jap Navy Betty bombers escorted by Zeros. Tough going. The Bettys came in at between 18000' and 22000' with Zeros above sometimes more than once per day. We were trying desperately to hang onto Port Moresby because that was all that separated the Japanese from Australia. But the big problem was NO RADAR. There was Australian radar but that was hundreds of miles away. No early warning of a Japanese bombing raid other than a few "coastwatchers" (local farmers) who could call in. So the two squadrons of P-39s had to fly 2-4 plane patrols while everyone else just sat in the waiting room waiting to be called. Tough work. The Army finally got radar at Milne Bay in August and conventional interception missions (radar detection, scramble, ground radio vectoring you direction and altitude for contact) followed. Those P-39s (and the Navy at Battle of the Coral Sea) kept the Japanese out of Port Moresby. These P-39s were the earlier D, F and P-400 that had the earlier 1150HP engines and way too much weight. They could get to 23000' to intercept the bombers at 22000' but is was a struggle and they needed that radar, like any other contemporary plane.
Regarding Guadalcanal, the first P-39s to arrive there were those diverted British P-400s and they had British oxygen systems which were incompatible with ours. No oxygen, they could not be flown over 12000' per regulation. These were truly ground attack planes.

 

[Milosh]

The date on a document is the issuing date, not the testing date.

Since you are so hot on using the WW2 performance site, there are tests for the Spitfire IX from Oct '42 to Oct '44. Using your logic, the Spitfire IX wasn't in service til after Oct '44.

There was 154 Fw190A-8s delivered in March 1944.

 

[P-39 Expert]

The date on a document is the issuing date, not the testing date.

Since you are so hot on using the WW2 performance site, there are tests for the Spitfire IX from Oct '42 to Oct '44. Using your logic, the Spitfire IX wasn't in service til after Oct '44.

There was 154 Fw190A-8s delivered in March 1944.

Okay, but being wartime and all, wouldn't the issue date come pretty close after the actual test date?

I am hot on wwiiaircraftperformance. An Oct '42 test of the Spitfire IX would indicate that version of the IX would probably be about to start production or have already started production at that time. Unless the test states differently. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[buffnut453]

Okay, but being wartime and all, wouldn't the issue date come pretty close after the actual test date?

I am hot on wwiiaircraftperformance. An Oct '42 test of the Spitfire IX would indicate that version of the IX would probably be about to start production or have already started production at that time. Unless the test states differently. Wouldn't you agree?

Not necessarily. Depends on the release schedule for the document(s) involved. An initial release may be close to the test date but that same data may be repeated in later versions released many months or years after the test. It all comes down to the source documentation - did it come from the first set of pilot's notes ever written for the aircraft or was it part of a later update or, worse, an overall summary of comparative performances?