Spain joins Axis June 1940 - what if...

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you have just answered the question why hitler declined francos offer to join the Axis. franco's offer was designed specifically to be too high for germany to pay the price. economically it would have put a huge dent in the german economy. Politically it would have turned every neutral nation away from the germans, as they would have exposed the germans as completely untrustworthy. This would include those that actually joined the Axis detente (since they did not enter the war until the latter part of 1940, and then only with some arm twisting....in the case of finland, they did not join the axis until after June 1941).

The most likley scenario is that the Germans dont accept conditional surrender of the french and push onto Marseilles. This may have induced co-operation from the spanish without the economic cost, but still with the promise of the French African possessions. The French believed they could extrricate an additional 20 Divs from southern Francce, if an evacuation started aound June 14th....thats just prior to the fall of Paris. They had over 2000 airframes in reserve, 22 Divs already in French North Africa Corsica and West Afrfica. Their entire navy would of course go over to the allied side. In addition Portugal would almnost certainly either enter as an allied nation, or at the very least hand over the Azores (as they did historically, in 1944) for use by the allies.

This scenario almost certainly would see the rapid defeat of the italians in Libya, and the occupation of Spanish Morocco, Spanish Sahara and the Canary Islands. It would probably see a massive siege, similar to that at Tobruk, lasting years I would think. Gibraltar was the most well stocked fortress in the British empire, so its ability to hold out would be considerable.

On the other hand, the Spanish ports of Cadiz and Corunna would have given some possibilities for U-Boats and Surface raiders. but with West Africa, the Azores and Canary Islands in Allied hands (oh, as well as the Portuguese island of Madeira), the Axis would still remain pretty much contained.

Another possibility is that the germans simply invade Spain. This is what both Jodl and guderian wanted to do. Guderians plan was, frankly foolhardy and impractical. jodls plan, on which the eventual Felix plan was based, was a sound plan, but could not have been implemented until the end of the year and would have given the allies plenty of time to prepre and negotiate with the Spanish. It would have given the spaniards and the Portuguese time to consider their position and perhaps accept armamanets from the allies (of course joining the allies)

What the germans wanted to avoid was another peninsular campaign with the gureillas and constant harassment....getting nowhere. Perhaps not on the scale of Nappy, but more akin to Yugolslavia. A nightmare, just the same.
 
That's not going to happen as Germany had no desire to fight France (or Britain either for that matter).


I dont agree that germany did not want to fight the western allies. Germany thought that the British would make peace after the fall of France, but in 1939 had actually wanted war, one reason being to get revenge for versaille. He had hoped that after the fall of Poland, the western allies might acquiesce, but his overall goal was at some point to defeat the western allies militarily.

What peeved the germans and enraged Hitler was Britains failure to accept meekly a german fait accompli. Thats not avoiding war, thats wanting your opponent to accept a new status quo. Britain was never going to accept the status quo..

So if you had said "Hitler wanted to avoid war with Britian and france, at least trermporarily, whilst he busily went about enslaving or destroying the rest of Europe", then you are right, Hitler wanted to avoid war. If the allies resisted that modus operandi, then Hitler wanted to destroy one or both countries. And given that hitler knew the Allied position regarding German militarism...ie no more czechoslovakias.....Thats closer to the truth than trying to pass off Hitler as a man of peace with only warm fuzzy feelings or even indifference towards both Britain and France.

Unconditional surrender was an option for the Germans, and was the method advocated by Guderian, to get to Spain.....his so-caled flying column. This was an impractical plan but Jodls was based on the same assumption, but with a pause after the collapse of france. So there were officers at least thinking along the lines of an unconditional surrender
 
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Good stuff Parsifal...do you know anything about Spanish troops in USSR?

You say The Canary Islands would have been taken by the British....was this ever planned?

Did the Germans want Spain in the war just for Gib or for more symbolic reasons...
 
I do, but its at home and im not. Will post what I have later today (about 9 hours away).

The spanish Blue Division fought very well in the Novgorod region, but remember they were hand picked, the best that Spain could field.

(edit: had a chance to go home and look the British plan for the capture of the Canary Is.

The operation was called Operation Puma, and involved Commando units, Royal Marines regular Army Infantry.

One of the commando units was No 4 Cdo. After returning from Norway, training started for Operation Puma, the occupation of the Canary Islands. The operation was planned following intelligence that Spain was going to join the war on the side of the Axis forces. It was initially scheduled for June 1 1941. The intention was to prevent Germany using the islands as a U-Boat base. The force assembled included five commando units, an army brigade, two Royal Marine brigades and supporting arms. Training for Operation Puma culminated in landing exercises in the Hebrides from the Landing Ship, Infantry HMS Royal Scotsman. The operation was renamed Operation Pilgrim and after a number of delays was put on hold by the Chiefs-of-Staff.

The germans were also planning to capture the islands but their plans were stymied when they realized that whilst they could take the islands supply and reinforcement was going to be very difficult for tham
 
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This 'what if' is based on June 1940 and the retaking of Gibraltar.

Why would Hitler dicker around with Gibraltar/Spain etc in the summer of 1940 when he has the perfect chance to knock Britain out of the war?
Everyone expected Britain's neck to be "wrung like a chicken" and either be invaded or sue for peace. Why would Hitler take his boot off of Britain's neck?

After Mers-el-Kebir it would take very little to get France to ally with Germany. So it's a package deal. When Spain joins the war France is pulled in also.

Not exactly...
There are a number of factors here. France is very concerned about her colonies, and is well aware that Spain Italy have eyes on them. What does France gain from a war?


Why wouldn't they stand a chance in the Med?

Germany, Italy (even with Spain France) are still unable to eject the British from Egypt.
Britain may well lose Gibraltar (and likely Malta) but will gain an advantage by seizing tha Canaries and Azores.
If Gibraltar falls there is limited benefit to passage through the straights as Germany has limited naval assets and the Regia Marina is hampered by the lack of fuel.


Any knowledge on the military of Spain duriing WW2?

Was it in any position to support Germany other than as a 'friendly' neutral?

Not really, the costs of both resources and manpower would be huge, compared to the gains

Good stuff Parsifal...do you know anything about Spanish troops in USSR?

You say The Canary Islands would have been taken by the British....was this ever planned?

Did the Germans want Spain in the war just for Gib or for more symbolic reasons...

The Canaries would be useful as well, but there was some serious disconnect between what was possible given the naval transport assets the Axis had

I do, but its at home and im not. Will post what I have later today (about 9 hours away).

The spanish Blue Division fought very well in the Novgorod region, but remember they were hand picked, the best that Spain could field.

The Blue Division also include some fanatical Facsists and political opponants of Franco, sending them to the Eastern front was a way to get rid of them


Actually much earlier than that, the British had plans for action against the canaries and Cape Verde (Operation Shrapnel Operation Alloy) from the summer of 1940. There were two RM brigades (101 102) available, with an addtional brigade (103) forming. Occupation of the Azores was also all but certain if the Germans moved into Spain or if Spain became a belligerant.
Operations against the islands off the African coast were so important that RM 102 brigade was held in readiness in Freetown during the summer of '40, ready to move out within 72 hours. This was despite the fact that the British were expect an invasion (Sealion)
 
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Whether France has anything to gain by fighting Britain doesn't matter. After Mers-el-Kebir France was at war with Britain and remained at war until Operation Torch finally finished Vichy France off.

This scenerio gives France a chance to strike back at their British tormentors. They might take it rather then just serving as a British punching bag.
 
There was never a declaration of war between Frnace and Britain, at least not until Lvals return to power in late 1941. It was often as much a case of the individual colonies making decisions about what sides they wanted to take. In the Pacific for example, the Vichy on New caledonia accepted joining the Allies without hardly a murmur of disquiet. Some time earlier the Japanese extorted basing rights and occupation of IndoChina, but the French never joine them as allies

In Europe and North Africa, the Central African colonies of France joined the British in their souther n arm of the general offensive against the italians. There were basing rights given (not taken) to the RAF when they set up the overlan air routes to Egypt. Thousands of Frenchmen joined the allied cause either as "Free Frenchmen" under De Gaulle, or as part of the Vichy forces.

Even after the sad events of Merselkebir, there was a strong willingness to join the allies rather than join the germans . german behaviour in the occupation is largely the reason for that. Within hours of the landings in North Africa the local forces were changing sides to fight alongside the allies, initially to clear Tunisia but latyrer to liberate Corsica and take part in the liberation of Italy and France as well. During all these actions Vichy remained in existence. The occupation of southern france was tritely masqueraded by the germans as coming to an ally's aid. nobody believed that for a second, except maybe the closest collaborators like Petain and Laval. The French showed what they thought of German offers of protection by scuttling their fleet and joining either the resistance or fighting with the allies in their thousands. The experiences between the british and the French 1940-2 were very painful for both sides, but the aimosity generated paled compared to how the French thought about the germans. They hated the Germans because of what the germans had done to them, they were less angry with thye british, as event were to show.
 

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