Spitfire Combat Radius (range) evolution, limitations? (2 Viewers)

[GregP]

Well I disagree.

It's OK if you disagree. Nobody ever said we all have to agree. The P-51A worked out just fine in combat and was still flying at war's end. The Merlin gave it a much better ceiling, but the P-51A was still faster down low.

I can tell you this from working on them. North American products are very well built, and have solid systems in them. There is no apparent "jury-rigging." Everything fits and is robust. That doesn't happen by luck. It happens from solid engineering and good production line processes.

One change from P-51A to P-51B, other than the obvious engine change, and on was metal ailerons and elevators. All P-51s had fabric rudders. The difference between the metal and fabric wasn't very apparent until the speed hit above about 300 mph, and then the metal didn't deflect like fabric, so the non-deflecting metal gave the later P-51s better roll and pitch at higher speeds than the fabric surface did. At under 250 mph, there was little to chose between them.

 

[DarrenW]

I like your moxie, kid!

And I like his fresh line of questioning. I'm unfamiliar concerning the P-51A and it's combat history so I'm certainly learning a lot.

 

[pbehn]

Yeah I am well aware the British didn't like P-40s for missions flying out of Britain. But P-40s were in heavy use by the RAF and ANZAC forces from 1941, in fact they were the main British fighter in the Western Desert from late 1941 through mid 1942. And there were something like 150 P-40 Aces during WW2, at least 46 of whom were British / Commonwealth. The P-39 did very well in Russia, but there was only one US Ace flying P-39s, and no British / Commonwealth, though they were in fairly heavy use in the Pacific and racked up a fair number of victory claims in the NG area. As far as I know there was only ever one US ace flying Allison engined P-51, an A-36 pilot flying in Italy. I am not sure about British, there might have been a handful of aces but I don't think there were many air to air combat victories with that type.

There was a pressing need for a faster, longer ranged fighter in 1942, in all three of the Theaters I mentioned. I suspect the Russians would have liked it too. Recon is an important mission too but there was a serious need for fighters, especially those which could outrun Bf 109s and reach targets farther away. If it had been viable as a fighter (as distinct from recon / fighter-bomber) I believe it would have been in heavy use in North Africa, China and the Pacific. It may have only been available in relatively small numbers but so was the P-38, and look at the impact it had in the Pacific.

It was not a question of liking, it couldnt do the job of crossing the channel and getting back again. The P-40 was not the main British fighter in the period, it was not considered to take on the Fw 190 Jabo raids or for the battle of Malta. The English Channel and the defences the Germans had on their side dictated other pressing needs before range you had to outperform the Abbeville boys in their Fw 190s or you didnt get back home.

 

[GregP]

I think there is always an element of luck in a military aircraft design working out - especially in the era before computer simulation and computer aided design. I'd also debate how great some of the above listed aircraft really ultimately turned out to be (B-70? Really?) , but I was not denigrating NAA, or Edgar Schmued, Ray Wagoner etc.

Quite a few very promising aircraft from other very accomplished firms with good designers got canceled just because a prototype crashed or somebody somewhere decided to cancel it in favor of another, which I definitely consider a factor of luck.

But you could also say the 'luck' factor was in the right people being in the right positions at the right time, and the right people making decisions on both sides of the pond. NAA was a relatively small company when the British purchasing commission approached them to make P-40s right? The original NA-73 / P-51A etc. had not really worked out that well as a fighter did it? It took somebody making a gamble on trying a British engine in an American fighter and others recognizing the possibilities, then still more people approving the idea and moving it ahead. I would say there is quite a bit of luck in all that.

You don't think any luck was involved in the development of the Merlin engined P-51?

The B-70 was a masterpiece of engineering and performance. I was lucky enough to see one of them flying down in Florida once in 1967, going into Eglin AFB. What killed it wasn't the fact that it couldn't perform as designed; it could. The death of the B-70 was the combination of accurate ICBMs and development of effective high-altitude anti-aircraft missiles, making Mach 3 at 70,000 feet something not quite as invulnerable as we thought it would be. Instead, we turned to low-level penetration and stealth.

The only reason the SR-71 was almost invulnerable (at 70,000 feet and Mach 3) was that fact that is turned out to be quite stealthy, unlike the B-70. If the B-70 had the radar cross section of the SR-71, it would have gone into quantity production. Alas, it had quite a large radar cross section, with a giant rectangular air intake that reflected every bit of energy radiated at it from anywhere. So, it was fast and high-flying, but you couldn't sneak up on anyone with a good radar.

 

[ColFord]

The Mustang I had its first victory (Fw 190) and first loss at Dieppe in August 1942, it was used in tactical recon because that was what it was best suited for, no other plane could do what it did.

First RAF Mustang Mk.I operational loss on 14 July 1942, aircraft of No.26 Squadron RAF flown by Pilot Officer H Taylor crashed at low level whilst strafing German troops near Le Touquet, France - either hit by ground fire or misjudged height during attack. (First non-operational RAF loss on 9 May 1942 in take-off accident.)

First RAF Mustang air to air combat victory, now known to predate that claimed during the Dieppe operation in August 1942. 'Kill' confirmed by RAF records declassified post-war, surviving Luftwaffe loss records and other records in Government Archives and dates from July 1942.

The P-51A / NA-73 was available, and due to it's excellent performance, they kept the project going, but they had some kind of problems with agility i still don't fully understand. I gather the P-51B saw a change in ailerons. All I can say is that the Allison P-51 did see action but it didn't really work out well in combat. If it had, I believe they would have made much wider use of it well before the Merlin-60 versions were available.

You obviously know little about the early Mustangs.

NA-73 North American Mustang Mk.I - no US 'P' designation as direct purchase contract between UK Government and NAA. Two aircraft from order provided to USAAC/USAAF for testing given XP-51 designation. 320 built.

NA-83 North American Mustang Mk.I - no US 'P' designation as direct purchase contract between UK Government and NAA. Minor changes and modifications identified in production of NA-73 implemented into NA-83. 300 built.

NA-91 North American P-51 Mustang, Mustang Mk.IA in RAF service. Lend Lease order for RAF, 150 aircraft. First with P-51 designation, no suffix. Basically similar to NA-83, but with change in armament to 4 x 20mm Hispano cannon. Number of these aircraft retained by USAAC/USAAF after Pearl Harbor and were first P-51 to enter US service.

NA-97 North American A-36A Mustang. First order officially for USAAF, 500 aircraft.

NA-99 North American P-51A Mustang, Mustang Mk.II in RAF service. Second order for USAAF, 310 built - originally was going to be more but production switched to Merlin engined P-51B/C.

As far as the RAF was concerned, the Allison engined Mustang worked out very well in combat, particularly in the role of a low altitude tactical reconnaissance fighter. In 1944 and 1945 in studies conducted by RAF staff in comparing the potential available aircraft for that role, they repeatedly came to the conclusion that the best possible replacement was more Allison engined Mustangs - not Hawker Typhoons, not various versions of Merlin or Griffon engined Spitfires, not Merlin engined Mustangs. Only problem was, they could not get them because the production lines had been fully switched to producing Merlin engined Mustangs for the 'pure' fighter role. Down low, with the engine modifications made by the RAF to the Allison engines in their Mustangs, they were fast, lighter than the Merlin Mustang, and had control responses that the pilots found more than matched their requirements. RAF, reluctantly, retired the last of the their Allison engined Tac/R Mustangs in August 1945 - they basically wore out the aircraft they had, combined with combat losses, usual training losses, etc. Pilots flying Mustang Mk.IA and Mk.II were still engaging in air to air combat - altho that was not their primary role - on an opportunity basis in and scoring 'kills' and 'damaged', confirmed, as late as February 1945 against types such as Me-262 and 'long nosed' FW-190s. They also racked up a very impressive score in strafing of ground targets, particularly railway steam engines and rolling stock, enemy transport, river barges and the like. Plus their best 'scores' were racked up by the Typhoon and Spitfire pilots, or the Squadrons of RAF or USAAF medium bombers who were called in as a result of their sighting reports on concentrations of enemy armour, transport, artillery positions and the like. RAF pilots in Allison engine Mustangs flew operations in them from 10 May 1942 until VE-Day, in May 1945, including first operation of single engine fighters based in UK against Western Germany in October 1942, first long range low level bomber escort against targets outside range of Spitfires and Hurricanes in September 1942, and a whole lot more.

 

[drgondog]

Denied permission because GM owned Allison and NAA?

Yes. Later, when the P-51B was a done deal with Merlin, Allison appealed to GMC to create an opportunity for the two stage (auxiliary) V-1710. NAA shot it down with design studies made late 1941 on Continental and Allison engine installation issue and associated re-design required of Mustang to incorporate a 20" movement (forward) of the wing to accommodate CG changes.

There was no love lost between Allison and NAA early in the Mustang life when Allison was 90 days late in delivering the commited engine for X-73 - on the basis that 'nobody actually believed the NAA fcst'.

I would say the B-70 was cancelled for a reason and leave it at that.

That would expose a lack of knowledge. Please expand.

Well, the proof is in the pudding. P-51B immediately started racking up victories and generating aces as soon as pilots started flying it in combat zones. P-51A and various other Allison versions no such luck as a fighter. The British found success with it as a recon aircraft and the Americans used the A-36 (eventually) with some success as a dive-bomber in Italy until bent wings forced them to retire it. How many aces do you know of who flew that aircraft? It was used in combat in China / Burma and didn't do so well. If it was effective it would have been put into much wider use in the Pacific and the Med (as a fighter). Because it was definitely needed.

The first P-51B ace was Jim Howard 354FG six weeks into Combat ops with 2.33 carried over from AVG, The next two Aces in 354th FG were in mid and late February 1944, seven weeks after combat ops.

How do you define 'didn't do so well' for CBI, look to number of P-38s and P-40s deployed and start counting 'Ace in Type', then look for P-47D aces?

How about P-47N - in combat from March 1945 to EOW?


The CBI was only operational theatre with recipients in 1st Air Commando, 51st FG and 23rd FG. There were only 3 operational squadrons deployed as fighters and all were primarily engaged in tactical operations, mostly ground support and escort for light and medium bombers in tactical role.

To answer your question, England (10) and Mulhollem (6) achieved Ace status (311FG). Others including Tex Hill (2 P-51A) scored in the short time before replacement - when the P-51A was shifted to Recon and 311th/23rd received P-51B/C after about 2 months.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

It's OK if you disagree. Nobody ever said we all have to agree. The P-51A worked out just fine in combat and was still flying at war's end. The Merlin gave it a much better ceiling, but the P-51A was still faster down low.

I can tell you this from working on them. North American products are very well built, and have solid systems in them. There is no apparent "jury-rigging." Everything fits and is robust. That doesn't happen by luck. It happens from solid engineering and good production line processes.

One change from P-51A to P-51B, other than the obvious engine change, and on was metal ailerons and elevators. All P-51s had fabric rudders. The difference between the metal and fabric wasn't very apparent until the speed hit above about 300 mph, and then the metal didn't deflect like fabric, so the non-deflecting metal gave the later P-51s better roll and pitch at higher speeds than the fabric surface did. At under 250 mph, there was little to chose between them.

The Allison engined P-51 did have a niche and it was good in it's niche to the end of the war, but that niche wasn't really as a fighter.

I gather aside from the metal rudders, there was also something about the rigging of the ailerons...? Does that ring a bell?

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

You obviously know little about the early Mustangs.

That would be an incorrect assumption on your part.

NA-73 North American Mustang Mk.I - no US 'P' designation as direct purchase contract between UK Government and NAA. Two aircraft from order provided to USAAC/USAAF for testing given XP-51 designation. 320 built.

NA-83 North American Mustang Mk.I - no US 'P' designation as direct purchase contract between UK Government and NAA. Minor changes and modifications identified in production of NA-73 implemented into NA-83. 300 built.

NA-91 North American P-51 Mustang, Mustang Mk.IA in RAF service. Lend Lease order for RAF, 150 aircraft. First with P-51 designation, no suffix. Basically similar to NA-83, but with change in armament to 4 x 20mm Hispano cannon. Number of these aircraft retained by USAAC/USAAF after Pearl Harbor and were first P-51 to enter US service.

NA-97 North American A-36A Mustang. First order officially for USAAF, 500 aircraft.

NA-99 North American P-51A Mustang, Mustang Mk.II in RAF service. Second order for USAAF, 310 built - originally was going to be more but production switched to Merlin engined P-51B/C.

I never said any of these subvariants didn't exist, nor does their existence come as any kind of surprise to me. Did you expect me to list them all out every time I mentioned the Allison engined mustang fighter variants? Even that is too long. Hence P-51A / NA-73 etc.

As far as the RAF was concerned, the Allison engined Mustang worked out very well in combat, particularly in the role of a low altitude tactical reconnaissance fighter.

Yeah but the emphasis there is on the reconnaissance. Yes it did have a role, especially in British use, which I mentioned already. And it also had a role for the Americans for a while as the A-36 "don't dare call it Apache" dive bomber, which I think was actually a bit more important in that role than is typically recognized.

What it didn't do particularly well was fly combat missions as a Fighter with a capital F. As in air superiority, fighter escort, point defense, fighter sweep, etc. They flew some missions in China and they didn't go so well. If you need me to I can get a book down off the shelf and transcribe some details, but I thought this was common knowledge.

Pilots flying Mustang Mk.IA and Mk.II were still engaging in air to air combat - altho that was not their primary role - on an opportunity basis in and scoring 'kills' and 'damaged', confirmed, as late as February 1945 against types such as Me-262 and 'long nosed' FW-190s.

Yeah but how many victory claims, how many aces? This way we can compare to other fighter types, for example, compare it with the Merlin engined types. Or with the Tempest or pick your own favorite.

 

[drgondog]

The Allison engined P-51 did have a niche and it was good in it's niche to the end of the war, but that niche wasn't really as a fighter.

I gather aside from the metal rudders, there was also something about the rigging of the ailerons...? Does that ring a bell?

Yes - the P-51B/D introduced 15 degree throw ailerons, the P-51D-25 had factory metal elevators and reduced horizontal stabilizer incidence for better dive stability.

You have a curious definition of 'fighter'. Care to expand?

 

[MIflyer]

Read somewhere that an NACA employee was given the task of improving the V-1710 and complained, "Why bother with this piece of junk?" That guy had a real attitude problem! While improving the V-1710 would not have been exactly pushing back the boundaries of knowledge, simply adding a 2nd speed to the V-1710 single stage supercharger would have really helped the P-39, P-40, and P-51, and might have even given the P-38 more flexibility. At the start of WWII just about everyone had only single speed single stage superchargers, but the V-1710 never incorporated that simple improvement while everyone else did. Ironically it would have been easier to do on the V-1710 than the Merlin, since the gearcase and rear accessory section could be unbolted from the block, unlike the Merlin.

Allison chose to not build a new version of the rear accessory section to accommodate a 2nd speed and instead coupled the auxillary supercharger used on the P-63 and F-82 via the starter drive coupling. As has been noted, this made the engine a lot longer than the basic V-1710 and unsuitable for easy introduction into the existing production fighters.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

That would expose a lack of knowledge. Please expand.

I wouldn't be so certain. But I don't want to derail this thread. Maybe we can start another one for the B-70?

The first P-51B ace was Jim Howard 354FG six weeks into Combat ops with 2.33 carried over from AVG, The next two Aces in 354th FG were in mid and late February 1944, seven weeks ater combat ops.

I am well aware there were tons of (Merlin series) P-51 Aces. I was talking specifically about the Allison engined P-51s.

How do you define 'didn't do so well' for CBI, look to number of P-38s and P-40s deployed and start counting 'Ace in Type', then look for P-47D aces?

Actually P-40s shot down the largest number of enemy aircraft (or at any rate, had the highest number of claims) in the CBI at 973, followed by P-51 (Merlin) at 345, then P-38s at 157, then P-47s at 16.

How about P-47N - in combat from March 1945 to EOW?

Great fighter, though a little late arriving. I certainly never said otherwise. No idea how many claims, but there weren't that many enemy aircraft lying after March 1945.

The CBI was only operational theatre with recipients in 1st Air Commando, 51st FG and 23rd FG. There were only 3 operational squadrons deployed as fighters and all were primarily engaged in tactical operations, mostly ground support and escort for light and medium bombers in tactical role.

Well A-36 was flying in Italy, and there are all the British variants as well.

To answer your question, England (10) and Mulhollem (6) achieved Ace status (311FG). Others including Tex Hill (2 P-51A) scored in the short time before replacement - when the P-51A was shifted to Recon and 311th/23rd received P-51B/C after about 2 months.

Right. So two? There were at least 37 US pilots who made ace while flying P-40s in the CBI, including Tex Hill who you mentioned. A large proportion of those were AVG pilots who had relatively few aircraft and were only in action for a comparatively short time. I don't know the exact count of P-38 aces in the PTO, but I just counted more than 70 on this list here, in spite of a relatively small number of P-38 units, at least initially.

Clearly the P-51 was a great design, it ended up being the best fighter of the USAAF in my opinion, and certainly in the top 5 fighters of the war in my book. But it did not seem to reach it's potential until after conversion to the Merlin.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Yes - the P-51B/D introduced 15 degree throw ailerons, the P-51D-25 had factory metal elevators and reduced horizontal stabilizer incidence for better dive stability.

I think that was a significant change.

You have a curious definition of 'fighter'. Care to expand?

Fighter is obviously a broad term, and there is wiggle room, but I think there is also a common sense definition. Is an aircraft which never flies air superiority, interception, combat air patrol, fighter escort or fighter sweep missions a fighter? Some 'fighters' were and are really tactical bombers in my opinion. But there are also some you wouldn't put on CAP which are still 'fighters' - a Beaufighter is a still fighter in my book for example, but with a more of a niche role. Same for any number of night-fighters. Or most floatplane fighters. Some aircraft might be fighters in one Theater while having reverted to tactical bombers in another. For example, the Hurricane was basically used as a tactical bomber in the Med by 1943, but was still being used as a Fighter (capital F) in the CBI at that stage, if not necessarily with great outcomes.

A tactical recon aircraft like one of the British Allison-engined Mustang variants isn't really a fighter IMO, or if it is, it's one with a very narrow niche. I think the Allison-engined Mustang could have had a substantial role in basically every Theater other than NW Europe if it had been able to do the missions listed above. Probably all it really needed was some tweaking to elevator and ailerons.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

I'd say the super basic definition of a fighter is an aircraft which destroys enemy aircraft. Which is the criteria I have been applying here.

 

[SaparotRob]

Hot diggity. The Anson IS a fighter!

 

[GregP]

The Allison engined P-51 did have a niche and it was good in it's niche to the end of the war, but that niche wasn't really as a fighter.

I gather aside from the metal rudders, there was also something about the rigging of the ailerons...? Does that ring a bell?

Yes and no. There is something about ALL ailerons, but you don't say what. There was and IS nothing wrong with the ailerons on a P-51A.

Yes, there were two sets of aileron rigging: ±10° and ±15°. From the factory. Naturally, the ones with the ±15° rigging rolled better. The Mustang was prohibited from snap-rolls as the horizontal tail wasn't stressed for it. A half snap-roll was taught in basic flight training and it was called a vertical reverse. The P-51A was prohibited from doing vertical reverses and other snap rolling maneuvers. So were a few OTHER airplanes otherwise called fighters. It wasn't a "deficiency." It was a matter of structural strength that wasn't needed in a front-line fighter. If you were doing snap rolls, you were WAY too slow and were likely not doing things correctly.

The P-51A could hold its own with ANY fighter below 15,000 feet, where the Allison was strong. Above about 15,000 feet, the power started dropping off due to the single-stage supercharger that was specified by the U.S. government in the contracts. The Merlin was fitted to the P-51 because Rolls Royce developed the Merlin with private funds, and so could experiment as they saw fit with the design. When they came up with an integrated 2-stage supercharger, courtesy of Sir Stanley Hooker, it seemed like a good thing to try it in a Mustang, and both the British AND the U.S.A. built 2-stage Merlin Mustang prototypes.

The British unit was called the Mustang X and had a Merlin 61 in it. It first flew 13 Oct 1942. They built five Mustang Xs. Obviously, they liked what they flew when they tried it.

The first XP-51B first flew 30 Nov 42. It was a more thorough redesign. Both the U.S.A. and the British liked it better than the Mustang X.

The P-51B-5-NA also introduced the infamous 85-gallon fuselage tank that turned the P-51 into the best escort fighter available to the Allies. I'm sure the British could have fitted such a tank to the Mustang X, but they weren't in the P-51 manufacturing business, so they bought P-51B/Cs instead from North American, who WERE in the P-51 manufacturing business. Thank heavens SOMEONE was.

After the P-51B/C had the kinked leading edge added and the horizontal tail was strengthened, the aileron and elevators surfaces were metalized, and the dorsal fillet was added for the D/K models, the P-51 lost any "deficiencies" it may or may not have had.

If you check, you'll find almost ALL of the great piston fighters went through similar development modifications one one kind or another, including the Spitfire, the Typhoon, the P-47, the Tempest, the Bf 109, the Fw 190, and several others.

Many fighters went through several engine trials. Here is a Fairey Battle with a radial engine installation:

Didn't exactly turn it into a world-beater, but it WAS different from the single-stage Merlin usually seen in Battles.

With the above, I think I digress, so I'll stop. Cheers to you.

 

[GregP]

I wouldn't be so certain. But I don't want to derail this thread. Maybe we can start another one for the B-70?


I am well aware there were tons of (Merlin series) P-51 Aces. I was talking specifically about the Allison engined P-51s.


Actually P-40s shot down the largest number of enemy aircraft (or at any rate, had the highest number of claims) in the CBI at 973, followed by P-51 (Merlin) at 345, then P-38s at 157, then P-47s at 16.


Great fighter, though a little late arriving. I certainly never said otherwise. No idea how many claims, but there weren't that many enemy aircraft lying after March 1945.


Well A-36 was flying in Italy, and there are all the British variants as well.



Right. So two? There were at least 37 US pilots who made ace while flying P-40s in the CBI, including Tex Hill who you mentioned. A large proportion of those were AVG pilots who had relatively few aircraft and were only in action for a comparatively short time. I don't know the exact count of P-38 aces in the PTO, but I just counted more than 70 on this list here, in spite of a relatively small number of P-38 units, at least initially.

Clearly the P-51 was a great design, it ended up being the best fighter of the USAAF in my opinion, and certainly in the top 5 fighters of the war in my book. But it did not seem to reach it's potential until after conversion to the Merlin.

You probably don't know this, but Drgondog is an author and has written books (including Our Might Always and Angels, Bulldogs, & Dragons) that include type-specific victories by the Eighth Air Force as well as the P-51 in general. He has flown P-51s, is an aeronautical engineer, his father flew P-51s in WWII, he grew up talking with WWII P-51 aces at his home, and I daresay he is an authority WAY beyond whoever you may be referencing in your posts.

He is currently working on a book containing the enumerated aerial victories in the MTO.

You may want to go read his past 15 - 20 years of posts before you question his ability to comment on WWII much more, and you may not since I don't know YOUR background at this time. Perhaps you, too, are a recognized expert on the subject of the P-51 and WWII aerial victories.

Cheers to you.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

before you question his ability to comment on WWII much more,

I don't recall ever having done that, did you want to point out where I did?

and you may not since I don't know YOUR background at this time. Perhaps you, too, are a recognized expert on the subject of the P-51 and WWII aerial victories.

I didn't realize there was a forum rule here that you have to have published a book, or been posting here for 15 - 20 years, before you can comment, reply, or hold an opinion?

It seems like you are questioning my ability to comment on WWII. I assure you, I have that ability. So do a lot of people. If that wasn't the case, there wouldn't be much point in having forums for discussing it.

Cheers to you.

Right back at you.

 

[ColFord]

What it didn't do particularly well was fly combat missions as a Fighter with a capital F. As in air superiority, fighter escort, point defense, fighter sweep, etc.

I'll leave it these gentlemen as testament to flying the Allison engined Mustang as a 'capital F' fighter with the RAF in WW2. Two of them pictured here, shot down six Luftwaffe aircraft between them in a single sortie in mid 1943. Another made the last recorded kill by an RAF Allison Mustang, against a FW-190 in February 1945. Another made two kills on RAF Allison Mustangs - and numerous steam engines, barges, enemy MET, marching troops and even an E-Boat - before being moved onto the Merlin engine Mustangs to take command of one of the newly re-equipped RAF Squadrons on Mustang IIIs. Another commanded a number of the pioneering RAF early long range operational sorties on the Allison Mustangs, and a couple of others pictured where there as well. Many flew numerous Rhubarbs, Sweeps, Lagoons, Rangers, Populars; performed dangerous low level sorties against V-1 sites in Northern France; along with directing the guns of the Allied Navies onto the beaches of Normandy on D-Day; and directed Allied artillery accurately onto enemy armour and troop concentrations, flak positions ad supply dumps many times. A couple even sunk German mini-subs! A number of those pictured were present when the RAF got its first Allison Mustangs, and when they retired their last, flying operations on Allison Mustangs from 1942 to 1945. (Note: some of them even flew Spitfires at various times during the war, including Spitfire PR.XI and PR.XIX, Spitfire FR.IX and Spitfire FR.XIVe, so they did have a good basis for comparison of the two types.)

I'll leave it to them and a few hundred others of their friends and comrades who certainly regarded themselves as FIGHTER-reconnaissance pilots, wore their battle dress with the top button undone, and a number of whom when the RAF started to receive Merlin engined Mustangs, were moved across to the Fighter Command Mustang Squadrons being re-equipped, in senior roles to show the Fighter pilots how to get the best out of the Mustang.

never said any of these subvariants didn't exist, nor does their existence come as any kind of surprise to me. Did you expect me to list them all out every time I mentioned the Allison engined mustang fighter variants? Even that is too long. Hence P-51A / NA-73 etc.

Using "P-51A / NA-73" in the way that you did certainly did not indicate you understood the lineage of the early Mustangs and the order in which they were produced and entered service. Too many people out there seem to think the P-51A equated to the first Mustang in service, so therefore we tend to try and be precise about how we refer to them so as not to leave room for ambiguity or misunderstanding.

Hot diggity. The Anson IS a fighter!

And on the definition given, a whole lot of aircraft could be considered a "fighter" by virtue of destroying an enemy aircraft.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Pointing out that a given aircraft didn't work out that well as a fighter - which by the way is done here all day long in dozens of threads going back decades - is in no way casting aspersions on any of the men who flew said aircraft. It's completely disingenuous to imply that it does.

I never once said recon pilots weren't brave, or that bomber or fighter-bomber pilots weren't brave, or any of the above. Nor did I ever so much as suggest they didn't contribute to the war effort.

If I post pictures of all the guys who died flying Fairy Battles, Boulton Paul Defiants, or Brewster Buffalos does that mean those aircraft were great fighters all the sudden?

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Hot diggity. The Anson IS a fighter!

Ok how about, has the mission of shooting down enemy aircraft.