Spitfire V Versus P-40E

pbehn said:

Isnt the difference in a word develop and deploy. The P-40 obviously didn't change or force the deployment of a more advanced Bf 109 marque. However the LW had many places to send aircraft and was producing/developing several types so the question is where do you send your "E"s and "F"s?

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Yes, that's what I was going to say.

The P-40E may have sped up the deployment of the Bf 109F to the Med, but not the model's development.

Jg27 had converted to the Bf 109F-4 before the P-40E turned up over the desert. The exchange rate (kills vs losses) favoured Jg27 since arriving in Africa with the Emil. As Pbehn noted, it was more likely that they recieved the Friedrichs when they did, because it was their turn; the Channel and Eastern fronts probably had higher priority.

I did some research on ww2.dk
there is (single engine) Fighter situation at 27th December '41, and if i miss nothing, there were no Emil, in fighter unit, in Africa that day so i suppose the the Kittyhawk and Emil never clashed

GregP said:

Hi Soaringtractor,

Every country in WWII was nationalistic ... ALL of them. The British were no different than we were in that regard. Not sure the British lied about anything, but their flight reports generally limited the Allison to some lower boost than was used in combat while the Merlins in their tests were boosted to what WAS used in combat. That isn't exactly a lie since the test conditions were printed in the reports.

I do not think the P-40F had lower performance than the Allison P-40s. It was very similar in performance to the Allison P-40 at 16,000 feet and below but was slightly better at higher altitude because the Merlin used, a single-stage Merlin 28/219 unit, had a larger supercharger impeller. I would have liked to have seen a 2-stage Merlin P-40 myself.

The Allison was and IS a good engine, but so is the Merlin. Different approaches to the same problem. The Allison was more robust and would hold a tune longer, but there was and IS nothing wrong with the Merlin engine ... it has a solid place in history that is inevitably a bit above the Allison in performance, especially the 2-stage units. I have a friend who overhauls Allisons and I worked with him on Allisons for several years. Great engines that spank Merlins on the tractor-pull circuit.

The biggest problem with the Allison these days is that Rolls-Royce bought the Allison rights and name, and has no interest in promoting it whatsoever. That, unfortunately, is the right of the owner.

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I am just the messenger reporting the "facts" I have read !!!! And i tire quickly of the Brits arrogant attitude and constant badmouthing anything American. How would it have been IF "WE.." had of just stayed home with our Inferior equipment and troops and let the Brits fight the huns by themselves. IF "WE.." had England would be speaking German today !!! you are welcome.....Limeys !! !

The Desert Air Force (DAF), also known chronologically as Air Headquarters Western Desert, Air Headquarters Libya, the Western Desert Air Force, and the First Tactical Air Force (1TAF), was an Allied tactical air force created from No. 204 Group RAF under RAF Middle East Command in North Africa in 1941 to provide close air support to the British Eighth Army against Axis forces. Throughout World War II, the DAF was made up of squadrons from the Royal Air Force (RAF), the South African Air Force (SAAF), the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF), the United States Army Air Forces (USAAF) and other Allied air forces.

In October 1941, the Western Desert Air Forces had 16 squadrons of aircraft (nine fighter, six medium bomber and one tactical reconnaissance) and fielded approximately 1,000 combat aircraft by late 1941. By the time of the Second Battle of El Alamein (Oct – Nov 42), the DAF fielded 29 squadrons (including nine South African and three USAAF units) flying Boston, Baltimore and Mitchell medium bombers; Hurricane, Kittyhawk, Tomahawk, Warhawk and Spitfire fighters and fighter-bombers. There were over 1,500 combat aircraft, more than double the number of aircraft the Axis could field.

Jagdgeschwader 27 (JG 27) "Afrika" was a fighter wing of the Luftwaffe during World War II. The wing was given the name "Africa" for serving in the North African Campaign predominantly alone in the period from April 1941 to September 1942. Elements of JG 27 fought in every major theatre of operations in which the Wehrmacht operated.

Stab JG 27 was created in October 1939 and assigned two gruppen (groups) in the Phony War. The wing's first campaign was Fall Gelb, the battles of the Low Countries and France. In the second half of 1940 JG 27 received a third gruppe and fought in the Battle of Britain. In 1941 it returned to Germany then fought in the German invasion of Yugoslavia and Battle of Greece in April 1941. The wing was then separated with two gruppen sent to support Operation Barbarossa, the invasion of the Soviet Union in June 1941. I. Gruppe was sent to Italian Libya beginning JG 27s North African Campaign from mid-April 1941. It was joined by II. Gruppe which was withdrawn from the Eastern Front after les than two weeks and transferred to Africa. III. Gruppe joined the other gruppen in North Africa in late 1941. JG 27 fought as a complete wing in Africa and Battle of the Mediterranean, supporting the Siege of Malta, until December 1942. I. Gruppe returned to France and spent the rest of the war serving in the Defense of the Reich, Channel Front, and Western Front theaters. III. and the newly created IV. Gruppe remained operating in Yugoslavia and Greece until March 1944.

Don't tell me they never fought each other! We've had North Africa P-40 veterans speak at the museum!

I mentioned the Bf 109F initially because, at least for the U.S.A., our best planes went to the ETO, with a slight detour to North Africa at first. Perhaps the Germans didn't send their "new" Bf 109Fs to North Africa right away, I'm not sure and am not interested enough to research it at this time. But the timeframes (1941 - late 1942) certainly overlap, and there were very certainly Bf 109 - P-40 battles. I will not go so far as to say, Bf 109E - P-40E battles took place, because I don't know for sure at this time. But the timeframe is certainly there for Bf 109 E / F and P-40E.

If i was a pilot in the dessert, i'd want to be flying a Spitfire. Better maneuverability and climb rate.However, the P-40E is a tough son of a gun. As a fighter bomber it is amazing. But if at 20,000+ feet in a dogfight against 109F's I'd want to be in a spitfire for sure!

Welcome, General. Can't ever go wrong with a Spitfire, unless it is a long-range escort mission! Great plane, if ever there was one. They may have invented the term "Great plane" with the Spitfire in mind.




Of course, this is the famous Spitfire ALE ... not the ubiquitous Supermarine Spitfire Mk XVIII below:



Hey now, THAT's a fighter!

GregP said:

Don't tell me they never fought each other! We've had North Africa P-40 veterans speak at the museum!

I mentioned the Bf 109F initially because, at least for the U.S.A., our best planes went to the ETO, with a slight detour to North Africa at first. Perhaps the Germans didn't send their "new" Bf 109Fs to North Africa right away, I'm not sure and am not interested enough to research it at this time. But the timeframes (1941 - late 1942) certainly overlap, and there were very certainly Bf 109 - P-40 battles. I will not go so far as to say, Bf 109E - P-40E battles took place, because I don't know for sure at this time. But the timeframe is certainly there for Bf 109 E / F and P-40E.

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Vincenzo wrote that Bf 109E's and P-40E's may not have clashed over Africa, not that 109's and P-40's never fought each other
It is certain though that the Emil's main opponents from April-September '41 were Hurricanes and Tomahawks; from about October or November '41 on it would be Friedrichs against Hurricanes and Tomahawks; from about the New Year Kittyhawks as well.
Not that any of it really matters, because the idea that the P-40E had any influence on the Bf 109F's deployment to North Africa, is not only thwarted by the timeline, but also that the DAF fighters were coming off second best against Jg27 before and after the P-40E showed up.

Hi Stig1207,

True, he did say that. But Bf 109s and P-40s were in North Africa at the same time in 1941 and 1942, and they DID clash. I said that North Africa may not have been the most important front for either the Allies or the Axis and, from that, I infer that Bf 109Es were likely still present in North Africa in 1941 - 1942. The P-40E may have come out in fall 1941 and, from that, I infer they MAY have been present in North Africa in 1942, when JG 27 was still stationed there with Bf 109s. They may or may not have had the Bf 109F at that time, I can't say.

I have heard a P-40 pilot who flew in North Africa speak, though I did not exactly pay attention to what P-40 sub-type he was flying, and he did not specifically say which Bf 109 model he fought. I generally pay attention to the opponent subtypes if they are mentioned in a talk, and SHOULD pay more attention to own subtypes.

So, absolutely no insult to Vincenzo at all, but I know P-40s fought Bf 109s in North Africa. What I do NOT know is the specific models that fought each other. He could be right that the Bf 109F may not have fought the P-40E in North Africa ... I don't know. But the Bf 109 and P-40 absolutely did fight each other in North Africa. The P-40 fought in every front the U.S.A. was involved in plus most that the British were involved in, and some the Dutch were involved in, and a few others, too. It was still fighting when the war ended, despite being out of production at that time. The Bf 109 was still fighting when the war ended, too, though it was still in production at the time.

Had I been the Germans developing the Bf 109F at the time, I would have been much more concerned with fighting Spitfires than P-40s, as suggested above, because the Spitfires were much better than the P-40 at higher altitudes that were common in Europe. In North Africa, however, the P-40 was pretty good below 15,000 feet where the North Africa air war was largely being fought. What I was quoting was a reference that stated the P-40E contributed to higher priority being assigned to the Bf 109F than it had before the P-40E. The reference is an old one, and maybe the inference was that the tail fix might have been speeded up. I have seen other references say that the initial "fix" was external longitudinal braces riveted to the tail, but have never pursued the truth of it. Actually, the only tail fix I KNOW had external braces was the Typhoon. I now doubt the old reference was accurate about Bf 109F development being tied to the P-40E and backed off from that above ... but it could be accurate. Yes, the Bf 109F came out in 1940 and the P-40E came in 1941, but the Bf 109F also had crashes due to tail failure in dives (Feb 1941) after it was first delivered to operational units in January of 1941, and required some rear fuselage redesign that may or may not have been pushed ahead for any number of reasons.

I doubt the P-40E was one of those reasons at this time since I think the Bf 109F was "sorted out" with regard to the tail fix before the P-40E was produced and made it to North Africa and became operational there.

Actually, if I go back and read some old books, such as Famous Fighters of the Second World War by William Green (1962), I can find a few things, though not many, in there I now believe to be false. Green states that in a vertical dive, the Spitfire could not stay with the Bf 109E. I think the Bf 109E had fuel injection and accelerated better initially in a vertical dive, but the Spitfire would catch it after the initial dive move was made. We KNOW the Spitfire has a higher critical Mach number than the Bf 109. So, I'm not surprised if an old reference is in error, and I should have paid more attention to it before posting above. It happens.

I am likely rambling now; it's late ... so I'll stop. Cheers.

soaringtractor said:

I am just the messenger reporting the "facts" I have read !!!! And i tire quickly of the Brits arrogant attitude and constant badmouthing anything American. How would it have been IF "WE.." had of just stayed home with our Inferior equipment and troops and let the Brits fight the huns by themselves. IF "WE.." had England would be speaking German today !!! you are welcome.....Limeys !! !

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welcome aboard our little forum Mr president, and i'd like to thank you for the great advice on how to cure Covid with toilet cleaner

GregP i know my English is very bad
but again the Emil (Bf 109E) was retired from fighter unit in North Africa before of the Kittyhawk did their first mission
this is not a opinion is a fact
the Bf 109 clashed with the P-40 in North Africa? oh Yes, the Emil (109E) clashed with the Tomahawk, and the Friedrich (109F) clashed with Kittyhawk and Tomahawk, probably (i've not checked) the F clashed also with USAAF P-40 (Kittyhawk equivalent) after Operation Torch, the Gustav (109G) clashed with Kittyhawk and USAAF P-40 (Kityhawk equivalent)

edit developing the 109F the german were not concerned of P-40 because the F was developed before of they encountered the P-40,

Vincenzo said:

GregP i know my English is very bad
but again the Emil (Bf 109E) was retired from fighter unit in North Africa before of the Kittyhawk did their first mission
this is not a opinion is a fact
the Bf 109 clashed with the P-40 in North Africa? oh Yes, the Emil (109E) clashed with the Tomahawk, and the Friedrich (109F) clashed with Kittyhawk and Tomahawk, probably (i've not checked) the F clashed also with USAAF P-40 (Kittyhawk equivalent) after Operation Torch, the Gustav (109G) clashed with Kittyhawk and USAAF P-40 (Kityhawk equivalent)

edit developing the 109F the german were not concerned of P-40 because the F was developed before of they encountered the P-40,

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unfortunately we are wasting our time Vincenzo, you cannot change someones mind who is certain they are correct all of the time !

Hi Vincenzo,

Your English is better than my Italian by far.

I am open to the fact that the Bf 109E might have been retired from North Africa before any P-40s arrived. What is your source for that and what date was the last Bf 109E removed from North African service? I'm pretty sure that information exists or we would not be having this discussion.

Here is a page out of the Osprey P-40 versus BF-109 book. But note it only addresses USAAF aircraft. Did the RAF get P-40D/E into service in North Africa earlier than the USAAF? I have more or less assumed they did, because they had Tomahawks in service there but have seen no evidence of it.

MIflyer said:

Here is a page out of the Osprey P-40 versus BF-109 book. But note it only addresses USAAF aircraft. Did the RAF get P-40D/E into service in North Africa earlier than the USAAF? I have more or less assumed they did, because they had Tomahawks in service there but have seen no evidence of it.

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As already writed. the SAAF fly first mission with Kittyhawk in late december '1941,
the RAF fly first combat mission with Tomahawk in early june '41 (but over the Syria)

GregP said:

I am open to the fact that the Bf 109E might have been retired from North Africa before any P-40s arrived. What is your source for that and what date was the last Bf 109E removed from North African service? I'm pretty sure that information exists or we would not be having this discussion.

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last time on this, the Emil (109E) war retired before of Kittyhawk arrive not of any P-40, luckily all can see that i writed

Removed from fighter service not later of 27th september 1941, for ww2.dk

Thanks, MIflyer!

Looks like P-40s and Bf 109s clashed as early as 26 Jun 41, likely I./JG 27. Also looks like II./JG 27 likely got there 3 Oct 41 with Bf 109Fs and I./JG 27 re-equipped with Bf 109Fs by the end of the year.

I'd say it looks like we have non-U.S. P-40s of a type earlier than the E fighting with Bf 109Es as early as 26 Jun 41. They might have fought with Bf 109Fs before the end of 1941. Then it looks like P-40Fs were next in North Africa, at least from the timeline in this book. The 33rd FG was a P-40 unit but didn't get to North Africa until late 1942, but they did clash with Bf 109s often. From the above, they likely clashed with Bf 109Fs and possibly Bf 109Gs, too. it depends on when the Bf 109Fs in North Africa were being phased out with Bf 109Gs.

The documents I have say "Bf 109" and "ME 109," but do not include the subtype. One such document would be "AD-A194-042, Air Command and Staff College Student Report on the 33rd Fighter Group - Fire From the Clouds." The documents is about the 33rd FG in North Africa. An excerpt is shown below (page 17):



While there is more, note they call the Messerschmitts "ME 109s" and do not add the sybtype. But it DOES indicate that P-40s and Bf 109s clashed over North Africa. The Appendix has all the awarded victories of the 33rd FG, but not the aircraft type of the victim.

From Post #313 above, it seems rochie is guilty of exactly what he is accusing me of.

A discussion is hardly ever a waste of time if there is back and forth in it. For the record, I have made my share of mistakes in here. Most of us have. My main mistakes are almost all in some casual reply late at night when I don't check my memory. I'd bet none of us are WWII scholars who memorize the war facts and stay up on it all the time. If I don't think about some aspect for several months, I tend to get fuzzy with the details, and I may not be alone in that.

Mea culpa. Cheers.

rochie said:

welcome aboard our little forum Mr president, and i'd like to thank you for the great advice on how to cure Covid with toilet cleaner

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Careful, he might take that as a compliment.

XBe02Drvr said:

Careful, he might take that as a compliment.

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very probably

Greg.

not one person on here will deny that Bf 109's and P-40's did indeed fight each other over Africa and parts of Europe.

my post #313 was because you have subtlety changed your stance from "the Bf 109 F was developed as a direct result of the P-40 E (Kittyhawk I and IA)
and are now posting info about combat between Bf 109's of any variant combating P-40's of any variant at any time frame, rather than just put your hand up and say " yep ok i got that wrong, i should of checked before posting" or something similar.

i personally do not have the knowledge to make sweeping statements of fact about most ww2 events and refrain from doing so, because i know the vast knowledge of members will pick this up.

and with that i will butt out of this discussion
Karl