Spitfire V Versus P-40E

rochie said:

For what ?

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Because it was outclassed by the Bf 109F.

Kevin J said:

Because it was outclassed by the Bf 109F.

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They were like the Mk11 and Emil, one was better at some things, the other better at others, it wasn't until the MkIX came to being that there was a clear winner.

PAT303 said:

They were like the Mk11 and Emil, one was better at some things, the other better at others, it wasn't until the MkIX came to being that there was a clear winner.

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Spitfire I/II combated Bf 109F-1/2 but inferior. Spitfire Vb/c combated Bf109F-4 but inferior. Spitfire IX outclassed Bf 109G.

Kevin J said:

Spitfire I/II combated Bf 109F-1/2 but inferior. Spitfire Vb/c combated Bf109F-4 but inferior. Spitfire IX outclassed Bf 109G.

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I think that gets exaggerated - keep in mind, Spit V was around for a long time and there were different subtypes with different configurations. The late model Vc matched up pretty well to a 109F-4, not in every respect but in enough of them to matter.

Spit Va or early b with 60 rounds per cannon and a weaker engine was vulnerable to a 109F but the Franz was around for a pretty long time too and the Spit kept being improved in little ways and there were different variants. The LF models with a Merlin 50M were quite fast down low & had the better roll rate.

Schweik said:

Spit Va or early b with 60 rounds per cannon and a weaker engine was vulnerable to a 109F but the Franz was around for a pretty long time too and the Spit kept being improved in little ways and there were different variants. The LF models with a Merlin 50M were quite fast down low & had the better roll rate.

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The Spitfire Vb production models and Bf 109F-4 get introduced at the same time. By the time the Vc is introduced so is the Bf 109G-2. Its always the Vb compared against the F-2. This is not the correct comparison of versions. The Fw 190a is blamed for terminating the France Air Offensive. Its the Bf 109F that defeats the RAF in 1941.

well in the med it took a little while for the g's to get down there and they don't seem to have done a whole lot better anyway. Spit VC were fighting 109f4 and 109 g2 in 1942 and into 43 and they were not getting owned. There were different conditions in different theaters, I think the channel had its own unique challenges.

By 1943 it's G4's and maybe a few g6s. but my point was that if you look at that rather neglected but still quite important theater, by the time the spitfire Mark 9s get there the Germans have already been basically forced out of North Africa. The p-47 didn't arrive until they were already in Italy. The fighters that won that battle were basically the spit 5, the merlin p-40, and the p-38. older p-40s in hurricanes as well but as fighter bombers.

Schweik said:

By 1943 it's G4S and maybe a few g6s

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The RAF was getting owned in both 1941 and 42 by the Luftwaffe.

I would say that in the med by the second half of 42 it had drawn even & by the end of 42 the raf was definitely winning.

Schweik said:

I would say that in the med by the second half of 42 it had drawn even & by the end of 42 the raf was definitely winning.

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Yes, but through shear numbers.

Kevin J said:

Yes, but through shear numbers.

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A win is a win.

I think that shorthand is not quite right either. The DAF actually had more of a numerical advantage in 1941 & early 42 when they were losing. If you count the Italians the Axis were built up to.pretty close to numeric parity in fighters during the last 6 months before Tunisia fell. The Italians in particular were suffering from fuel shortages though.
A lot of the air battles were also fairly even because the Germans would concentrate their forces. I'll see if I can find some examples.

Schweik said:

I think that shorthand is not quite right either.
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What is a 'shorthand'?

That they won through sheer numbers that's what I mean by shorthand.

it's one of those historical soundbyte things that gets repeated to make it more manageable to tell the story but they're not always accurate

Ok so here is an example, took MAW II down from the shelf, first page I opened it up to 22 October 1942, almost smack in the middle of the book. It's a pretty good example.

DAF fighters escorted RAF medium bombers on several raids through the day.

First in the morning, 12 Kittyhawk Is from 4 SAAF Sqn escorted 18 Bostons on raids against Axis airfield in Daba, encountering Bf 109s from II. and III./JG 27
10:45 18 American B-25s were escorted by 6 x Kittyhawk Is from 450 Sqn RAAF, 10 x Kittyhawk Is from 3 RAAF and 10 from 260 RAF
11:00 Spit Vs from 145 Sqn, Kittyhawk IIIs from 112 Sqn, and P-40Fs from the US 66th FS (probably about 20 aircraft in total) flew a fighter sweep ('de-lousing') over daba. They were engaged by a total of 17 Bf 109s from II./JG 27, III./JG 53, and II./JG 27.
12:15 another fighter sweep from nine Spits from 92 Sqn, 12 Kittyhawk IIas from 260 Sqn encounered Bf 109s from III./JG 27
11:00 15 x Macchi 202s from 9 and 10 Gruppi flew interception to engage the formation of Bostons.
11:35 11 x Macchi 202s from 4 Stormo, engaged Spitfires at 23,000 ft.
12:00 8 x Macchi 202s from 10 Gruppo engaged Spitfires
At an unstated point in the afternoon 238 Sqn RAF(Hurricanes) flew escort for a Tac-R mission.

Allied forces making claims or taking losses:
250 Sqn RAF (Kittyhawk III)
66 Fighter Sqn, 57th FG USAAF (P-40F)
145 Sqn RAF (Spit Vb)
260 Sqn RAF (Kittyhawk IIa)
450 Sqn RAAF (Kittyhawk III)
3 Sqn RAAF (Kittyhawk I)
601 Sqn RAF (Spit Vc)
92 Sqn RAF (Spit Vb and Vc)
238 Sqn RAF (Hurricane II)
4 SAAF Sqn (Kittyhawk I)

Axis forces
5./JG 27 (Bf 109F-4)
7./JG 27 (Bf 109F-4 trop)
8./JG 27 (Bf 109F-4)
Stab II./JG 27 (BF 109G-2 trop)
7./JG 53 (Bf 109F-4Z)
8./JG 53 (Bf 109F-4Z)
9./JG 53 (Bf 109F-4Z)
1./SchG 2 (Bf 109F-4)
4.(H)/12 (Bf 109F-4)

73 Sq 18 Gr 4 St (MC.202)
90 Sq 19 Gr 4 St (MC.202)
91 Sq 10 Gr 4 St (MC.202)
96 Sq 9 Gr 4 St (MC.202)
97 Sq 9 Gr 4 St (MC.202)

Claims were
DAF 7 X Bf 109 + probables and damaged
Axis 4 x P-40, 2 x P-46, 1 x B-25, 6 x Spitfires (the Italians claimed all the Spitfires) (12 fighters and 1 bomber)

Actual losses were
4 x Bf 109s shot down or crash landed after air combat, 2 x Bf 109s lost to Flak, 1 x MC 202 shot down, (5 fighters lost in air to air combat)
2 x Kittyhawk III, 2 x KIttyhawk I, 1 x Spit Vb, and 1 x B-25. Two Kittyhawk IIa were also badly damaged by 109s but landed at their own base (5 fighters +1 bomber lost).

Estimating the number of German and Allied fighters based on the number of units, all of which were lower than normal due to all the fighting, but the Germans had a bit fewer per squadron.

~ 40 -50 Bf 109 (mostly F-4 with a few G-2) and 34 MC 202 = Roughly 75 fighters
~ 25-30 Spit V, 30-35 Kittyhawk II or III, 15-20 Kittyhawk I, and 8-10 Hurricane II = Roughly 85 fighters

So as you can see, the odds were fairly even, as were the results. It's hard to say whether Kittyhawks or Spit V accounted for the enemy losses, but it wasn't extremely one sided. The Allies had a slight numerical advantage but roughly 30% of their forces, about 15 or 20 Kittyhawk I and 8-10 Hurricane II were definitely second string aircraft. Only the later model Kittyhawks and Spitfires could hold their own against the 109s - notice those were the ones sent on the 'de-lousing' missions.

Also worth pointing out, the 109s were almost all Franz.

I left out 112 Sqn RAF they were flying Kittyhawk III

In the Reno Air Races a few years back (seems like 2010 or 2011), in the Bronze Final, a stock P-40 outran a stock F4U-1D. All he did was bump the rpm to 3200 and push a little extra MAP. The F4U-1D was running full bore and they were essentially side-by-side with the P-40 in front a bit for several laps. Just FYI.

Wow no kidding. That's actually kind of amazing. I wonder what specific type of 'stock' P-40 it was and what engine. I never heard much about war time pilots increasing RPM in the Anglo-American sphere but some of the Soviet pilots mentioned doing that, though they said it caused the engines to burn out quicker.