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The Russians had a high-velocity (900m/s) 23mm cannon round with a high rate of fire
(intentionally slowed to 540 rpm) in the Volkov-Yartsev VYa-23.
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/weapons-systems-tech/ussr-aircraft-weapons-13780-3.html
Why not straight up copy it??
Bronc
I agree. German infantry were using StG44 assault rifles and MG42 light machineguns during 1944. It was 20 years before the U.S. Army introduced the equivalent M16 assault rifle and M60 machinegun.However, that it took the allies several years to come up with their version doesn't mean that much. That happened to a lot of German innovatations.
Since Russians used 37mm as a motor cannon, I guess that 23mm could be used in the same place, recoil-wise. Perhaps the gas-scoop leading from the barrel interfered with something inside engine, as was the case with MK 103?
That's for the 2 cm version. The 3 cm version had half the muzzle velocity.
The Germans couldn't make the MG 213 to work despite working on it for years and throwing a lot of money/resources at it. It is still very unclear that they would have fixed the problems by 1946.
However, that it took the allies several years to come up with their version doesn't mean that much. That happened to a lot of German innovatations.
Kris
Because it was....I still would like to know why you consider the Fw 190 so superior?
Also consider the years and the amont of training that was being undertaken during that period.Plus, Hohun already showed that the Fw 190s had a similar amount of take off and landing accidents as the Bf 109.
They still carried enough weapons to do the job. As Thatch once said...As to the Fw 190 as a bomber interceptor ... the Bf 109 could carry 3 MK 108s while the Fw 190 could carry 2 MK 108s and 2 MG 151/20s. But most importantly, the Fw 190 failed to perform at the altitude of the B-17s! And when they did get a new engine for the Fw 190, they dropped the two outboard cannons.
I agree. German infantry were using StG44 assault rifles and MG42 light machineguns during 1944. It was 20 years before the U.S. Army introduced the equivalent M16 assault rifle and M60 machinegun.
I know it's the 2cm version that was the one davebender mentioned after all.
What makes you think the Germans couldn't make it work. Considering the requirements were only issued in 1942 and the rather radical concept it's design cycle doesn't seem extraordinarily long and so far I never heard of any particular problems. Prototypes were available when the war ended.
Maybe it was the simplification of a problem from me.
In English - recoil force was on a trial mounting of 5500 kg (maximal).
In comparison - max recoil force for NS-37 was 5700 kg and average about 2200 kg, but ROF of VYa-23 was two time more.
Pilots and technical personal don't think of VYa recoil on Il-2 being too big, but...
Getting the gun to work on a test bench is one thing. Getting them to work in combat is another. The US .50 cal Browning was first built in 1921 yet more than one US aircraft had a number of troubles with them in WW II. Relaibility means one thing if you have six guns to begin with (although the slewing/yawing problem from unequel functioning guns on opposite sides of the plane is bothersome) it is quite another if you only have 2 guns or ONE MOTOR cannon. A Jam is as good as a mission kill.
Feeding the guns is the big problem. A rifle caliber MG is tryiing to feed about a foot (300-320mm) of ammo through the gun every second and with ammo that weighs 6-7lbs per hundred how much weight is the gun trying to move? it does depend on how the belts are placed in the ammo boxes but now try to feed a 20mm gun at 20 rps. Over twice as much length of belt per second and even MG 151 ammo weigh 220 grams so about 4.4kg of ammo ( not including links) is going into the gun every second. 30mm guns are even worse. Yes you can use servo motors and other tricks but it does take time to get all that stuff to work together in freezing temperatures and under + 5-6 "G"s or - 1-2 "G"s.
...
Some pages later from Perov, Rastrenin book, it's plainfully obvious that the 37 mm had a much greater recoil, since the Il-2 was turning at oposite side after a single 37 mm shot, that made precise bursts virtualy impossible. With the YVA or ShVAK, such problem never existed.
...
Thanks, VG, that makes sense.
Question: was VJa-23 ever mounted as motor cannon?
BTW you have just forgot to quote the most important, from your link:
There were not reliable measurement methods on that time to establish recoil forces. And particulary in a flying plane, with weapon concreate recoil possibilities, that makes less than 3500-4000 kg force.
So, from Taoubin design bureau you have the value of 2 200 kg force at best only. Moreover in 1941 the work of MP-6 being highly unreliable, Iliouchine just founded a false pretext to avoid this new gun, in favor of the weaker but reliable ShVAK. That is from the link you gave.
Some pages later from Perov, Rastrenin book, it's plainfully obvious that the 37 mm had a much greater recoil, since the Il-2 was turning at oposite side after a single 37 mm shot, that made precise bursts virtualy impossible. With the YVA or ShVAK, such problem never existed.
It's why the Sh or NS-37 gun use was so confidential on Il-2's.
A-20. 10 Feb 1943
P-39. 15 Apr 1943.
3 x P-39. 5 Jul 1943.
3 x P-39. 17 Aug 1943.
P-39. 19 Aug 1943.
P-39. 20 Sep 1943.
2 x P-39. 26 Sep 1943.
P-39. 29 Sep 1943.
2 x P-39. 30 Sep 1943.
P-39. 2 Oct 1943.
P-39. 4 Oct 1943.
3 x P-39. 20 Oct 1943.
2 x P-39. 26 Oct 1943.
P-39. 29 Oct 1943. Kill #148 for Erich Hartmann
23 of Erich Hartmann's first 148 kills consisted of U.S. manufactured aircraft. 15.5%. Apparently there were plenty of American manufactured aircraft used in combat on the Russian front.
Erich Hartmann's book is sitting on my shelf. The Soviet OOB is not.
And a French Aviation magazine on the other hand is reliable?Well i don't think that Hartmann is a very reliable source, cause from it's 352 official victories no more than 80 could probably be confirmed by russian archives.