Vampire vs Me 262

Seawitch said:

This is a Bell XP59 Airacomet?
Then no, I just don't think so!
What is it?

Click to expand...

Lockheed F-80 Shooting Star (might be a P-80, I don't know the age of the photo).
America's first operational jet fighter.

...and to the rest of you guys...I WAS JOKING





Elvis

Delcyros, I'm pretty sure the 226 ft2 figure is a typo. The F.I's wing should be close to the 262 ft2 figure. (and the wing tips would have added very little, plus the wing was generally different, thinner iirc, which may have mean slightly lower area of same size wing) I think the F.III and later models modified wing (which was designed to carry more fuel and under wing tanks) was a bit thicker for this reason, though I'm not sure. 9either way the wing was pretty close in overall properties)

According to: de Havilland D.H.100 Vampire - History, Specifications and Pictures - World Military Aircraft
and de Havilland Vampire and Sea Vampire (1946 - 1969) military aircraft - Vic Flintham

The max speed is ~540 mph, but (though one lists the 2,700 lbf Goblin I) I think this applies to the 3,000-3,100 lbf Goblin II powered version. (of all later F.I's) I'd expect the original F.I to be somewhere around 520-530 mph.

Even if the Me 262 had a 25% higher max CL, lift loading would still be much better for the Vampire with it's much lower wing loading.

For the F.I:
Base Series Designation: de Havilland D.H.100 Vampire
Classification Type: Fighter
Contractor: de Havilland - UK - View All
Country of Origin: United Kingdom
Initial Year of Service: 1946
Crew / Passengers: 1
Production Total: 95* - View Totals Page

*Sometimes an estimate when actual production numbers
are not available. A value of 0 indicative of NA.

DIMENSIONS:

Length: 30.74 ft | 9.37 m
Wingspan/Width: 40.03 ft | 12.20 m
Height: 8.83 ft | 2.69 m
Empty Weight: 6,380 lbs | 2,894 kg
MTOW: 10,494 lbs | 4,760 kg


PERFORMANCE:

Engine(s): 1 x de Havilland Goblin 1 turbojet engine generating 3,100lbs of thrust. - Compare Stats

Max Speed: 539 mph | 868 km/h | 469 kts
Max Range: 730 miles | 1,175 km
Service Ceiling: 41,010 ft | 12,500 m | 7.8 miles
Climb Rate: 4,300 ft/min (1,312 m/min)

ARMAMENT:

External Hardpoints: 2
Armament:
4 x 20mm cannons

Up to a maximum of 2,000lbs of external ordnance.



Now if we compare both a/c with max (clean) weight (full internal fuel and ammo) and their empty weights we have 3,800 6,400 kg for the Me 262A-1a and 2,894 4,760kg for the Vampire F.I (I believe the MTOW is w/out the 2,000 lbs Bombs, otherwise the fuel load would be too low to make sense)

For Soren's sake lets start with the empty weight comparison: wing loading: 175.1 kg/m2 /1.25(25%+ for slats)= 140.1 for the 262A-1a; 118.9 kg/m2 for Vampire F.I (with 262 ft2 figure).

And for thrust/weight: (empty) 262A-1a: .468 (for 2x 890 kp B-3 engines)
and .415 for the F.I Vampire (assuming thrust of 2,650 with some intake losses, there would be negligible exhaust losses due to the short jet pipe that was facilitated by the pod mounted engine twin boom design)


The loaded weight figures are more in favor of the Vampire due to the proportionally lower fuel load carried, though range was still similar due to the more fuel efficient engine. (SFC: 1.15 lbs/lbf hr for Goblin I opposed to 1.44 lbs/lbf hr for the 004B, a 25% greater specific fuel consumption, though this would have significantly improved with the 004D and E)

Elvis said:

Lockheed F-80 Shooting Star (might be a P-80, I don't know the age of the photo).
America's first operational jet fighter.

...and to the rest of you guys...I WAS JOKING





Elvis

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that's a P-80; IIRC, the F-80 had tip tanks installed.

Firstly all P-80's were redesignated F-80's when the USAF was formed. (as were all other pursuit a/c in USAF service, ie F-51, F-47)

The P-80 had tip tanks too, basicly the same assortment as well, one thing was the Fletcher centerline tip tanks (mounted on the end of the wing tip insteas of under the tip) required a modified squared off wing tip with slightly reduced span. The first tanks to be used were the normal Lockeed tanks basically the same 150/165 us gal tanks as those of the P-38, though the P-80 couldn't hold the largest (300 gal) tanks for the P-38. The P-80A/B only used the Lockheed tanks iirc. (it was the Lockheed tanks that actuall reduced drag, increased lift, and improved roll rate when fitted)

The P-80C was modified to use several other larger capacity tanks (from JoeB's site):

The F-80C bore the brunt of Shooting Star combat in Korea, most of the F-80As and B's either remaining stateside or going on duty in Europe. In service, many P-80C aircraft were fitted with two additional wing pylons, and provision for the mounting of sixteen 5-inch rockets were made. Service modifications included the use of either 265 US gallon under-tip tanks (sometimes named "Misawa" tanks after the air base in Japan where they were first introduced) or 230 US-gallon centerline tip tanks. When the latter type of tanks were carried, the wingtips were squared off, reducing the span to 38 feet 9 inches.

Click to expand...

The "centerline" drop tanks are the Fletcher tanks usualy seen on pictures of F-80C's (the same tank was used as the F-84's tip tank) and are usualy present on T-33's as well, being bolted to the wings. (not dropable)

They are demonstrated here on these P-80A, B's and the T-33:





But you are correct in thinking it's not an F-80, that is in fact a picture of the "Gray Ghost" which was the second P-80 prototype and the first XP-80A (the XP-80 "Green Hornet" was a completly different aircraft, being much smaller and powered by an early 2,400 lbf Goblin/Halford H-1 engine, the XP-80A was a redesign of the majority of the a/c with a new company model number and used the larger GE I-40 engine which was to become the J33). This was closely followed by the unpainted third prototype (2nd XP-80A) the "Silver Ghost." It was the XP-80A which would become the production P-80.


But this is all off topic... And the P-80 vs Me 262 topic has been discussed ad nauseum. (in that case Soren's argument did prove correct)

Elvis said:

Click to expand...

kool kitty89 said:

that is in fact a picture of the "Gray Ghost" which was the second P-80 prototype and the first XP-80A (the XP-80 "Green Hornet" was a completly different aircraft, being much smaller and powered by an early 2,400 lbf Goblin/Halford H-1 engine, the XP-80A was a redesign of the majority of the a/c with a new company model number and used the larger GE I-40 engine which was to become the J33). This was closely followed by the unpainted third prototype (2nd XP-80A) the "Silver Ghost." It was the XP-80A which would become the production P-80.


But this is all off topic... And the P-80 vs Me 262 topic has been discussed ad nauseum. (in that case Soren's argument did prove correct)

Click to expand...

I'll have to see if I can find the pics again, but if the pic I posted is the second prototype, then I think that's the one my dad took pictures of, while he was stationed at Itami.
The colour of the fuselage appears simlar, as best as I can remember.
It used to sit on the tarmac, under guard, surrounded by rope and stantions (think, as in "theatre ropes", if that makes sense).
Dad said the guards would let people walk right up to it, take pictures, gawk at it all day...as long as you stayed outside the ropes.
The pilots who flew it had a lot of fun with the 51's.




Elvis

The image is on wikipedia's P-80 page.


When did your dad take pictures of it?

According to wikipedia The "Gray Ghost" was lost on a test flight on 20 March 1945.


The Lockheed insignia is a dead giveaway for its prototype status.

Here's the profile of the 3 types of tanks the F-80C carried:

kool kitty89 said:

The image is on wikipedia's P-80 page.

When did your dad take pictures of it?

According to wikipedia The "Gray Ghost" was lost on a test flight on 20 March 1945.


The Lockheed insignia is a dead giveaway for its prototype status.

Click to expand...

KK,

First off, take anything you read on Wikipedia with a grain of salt, since the contents can be altered by anyone.
However, supposing for the moment that the date you stated is correct (and I'm not saying its not, just that it should be research past Wikipedia in order to verify it), then the plane my dad took pictures of was not the Grey Ghost.
Dad was sent to Itami in June of '46, so that plane would've already crashed.
From what I can remember, that is what it looked like, though.




Elvis

That picture is over Muroc (now Edwards)

Here's what it look like a few years later and closer to today...

Loss of the Gray Ghost

That's fake (the picture that is)

Yep although Tony LeVier had that happen to him just south of Edwards - that's probably what it looked like!

"Revision" - I clicked on the link and it was about that incident! I got to know Tony in the late 1980s - his consulting office was next door to my ex-wife's office.

Graeme said:

Loss of the Gray Ghost

Click to expand...

Hey Graeme - net site.

BTW in the story, Highway 6 is now known as Sierra Highway. At one time it was the only road from Los Angeles to Edwards. Rosemond is now a small community right next to Edwards.

BTW Tony told me the turbine disk came apart and they actually found it in the town of Lancaster, about 20 miles to the south.

FLYBOYJ said:

Hey Graeme - net site.

Click to expand...

Photo and story from this site Joe...

The X-Hunters - XP-80A

I meant "Great Site."

Elvis said:

KK,

First off, take anything you read on Wikipedia with a grain of salt, since the contents can be altered by anyone.
However, supposing for the moment that the date you stated is correct (and I'm not saying its not, just that it should be research past Wikipedia in order to verify it), then the plane my dad took pictures of was not the Grey Ghost.
Dad was sent to Itami in June of '46, so that plane would've already crashed.
From what I can remember, that is what it looked like, though.
Elvis

Click to expand...

Well was it Gray like that? But most of the early P-80s had this pearl-gray finish, including all YP-80A's and early production P-80A's some of the XP-80A prototypes were bare metal (ie Silver ghost) as well. (and the XP-80 was dark green, "Green Hornet")

Do you remember if it had the Lockheed insignia on the nose? (I think only the prototypes had this, not YP's)

First off, take anything you read on Wikipedia with a grain of salt, since the contents can be altered by anyone.

Click to expand...

It can't be altered by anyone. But still it is a very good idea to take some of it with a grain of salt, esp. if no sources are listed.

BBC NEWS | Technology | Wikipedia survives research test

The free online resource Wikipedia is about as accurate on science as the Encyclopedia Britannica, a study shows.

The British journal Nature examined a range of scientific entries on both works of reference and found few differences in accuracy.

Wikipedia is produced by volunteers, who add entries and edit any page.

But it has been criticised for the correctness of entries, most recently over the biography of prominent US journalist John Seigenthaler.

Open approach

Wikipedia was founded in 2001 and has since grown to more than 1.8 million articles in 200 languages. Some 800,000 entries are in English.

It is based on wikis, open-source software which lets anyone fiddle with a webpage, anyone reading a subject entry can disagree, edit, add, delete, or replace the entry.


We're very pleased with the results and we're hoping it will focus people's attention on the overall level of our work, which is pretty good
Jimmy Wales, Wikipedia founder
It relies on 13,000 volunteer contributors, many of whom are experts in a particular field, to edit previously submitted articles.

In order to test its reliability, Nature conducted a peer review of scientific entries on Wikipedia and the well-established Encyclopedia Britannica.

The reviewers were asked to check for errors, but were not told about the source of the information.

"Only eight serious errors, such as misinterpretations of important concepts, were detected in the pairs of articles reviewed, four from each encyclopedia," reported Nature.

"But reviewers also found many factual errors, omissions or misleading statements: 162 and 123 in Wikipedia and Britannica, respectively."

Wikipedia founder Jimmy Wales welcomed the study.

"We're hoping it will focus people's attention on the overall level of our work, which is pretty good," he said.

Writing style

Nature said its reviewers found that Wikipedia entries were often poorly structured and confused.

The Encyclopedia Britannica declined to comment directly on the findings; but a spokesman highlighted the quality of the entries on the free resource.

"But it is not the case that errors creep in on an occasional basis or that a couple of articles are poorly written," Tom Panelas, director of corporate communications is quoted as saying in Nature.

"There are lots of articles in that condition. They need a good editor."

Wikipedia came under fire earlier this month from prominent US journalist John Seigenthaler.

The founding editorial director of USA Today attacked a Wikipedia entry that incorrectly named him as a suspect in the assassinations of president John F Kennedy and his brother, Robert.

The false information was the work of Tennessean Brian Chase, who said he was trying to trick a co-worker.

Wikipedia has responded to the criticisms by tightening up procedures.

Next month it plans to begin testing a new mechanism for reviewing the accuracy of its articles.

kool kitty89 said:

Well was it Gray like that? But most of the early P-80s had this pearl-gray finish, including all YP-80A's and early production P-80A's some of the XP-80A prototypes were bare metal (ie Silver ghost) as well. (and the XP-80 was dark green, "Green Hornet")

Do you remember if it had the Lockheed insignia on the nose? (I think only the prototypes had this, not YP's)

Click to expand...

KK,

I'm thinking it was probably an early production model.
Yeah, colour looks the same as I remember...of course, we are talking about B&W photo's here.



Elvis