Was Operation Pedestal a greater Axis air attack than any faced by the USN in 1942?

[buffnut453]

The P-43 was the only Allied fighter at the time that could climb, catch and down a KI-46.

Rather depends on how the Ki-46 was being flown (height and speed). This image shows the fin of a Ki-46 shot down by 243 Sqn Buffalos over Singapore in January 1942 (the image is often, incorrectly, attributed to 488 Sqn). The aircraft was shared between Charlie Kronk, shown in the white flying suit and mae west, and Sgt Bert Sam Wipiti, a Maori who, for some inexplicable (perhaps racist?) reason, was not included in the photo:

Generally agree, though, that the usual operating altitude of the Ki-46 was challenging for most Allied fighters in the first half of the war.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

The P-43 was the only Allied fighter at the time that could climb, catch and down a KI-46.

They shot down several Ki-46 with P-40s, though they couldn't catch them in Hurricanes, as Shores himself notes in Bloody Shambles Vol 3

 

[buffnut453]

They shot down several Ki-46 with P-40s, though they couldn't catch them in Hurricanes, as Shores himself notes in Bloody Shambles Vol 3

And yet the Buffalo, which had worse performance at altitude than the Hurricane, managed to shoot one down. Again, it all comes down to the specifics of the engagement. I have huge respect for Chris Shores (I've actually met him and discussed WW2 aviation) but just because he says something doesn't mean it's right.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

And yet the Buffalo, which had worse performance at altitude than the Hurricane, managed to shoot one down. Again, it all comes down to the specifics of the engagement. I have huge respect for Chris Shores (I've actually met him and discussed WW2 aviation) but just because he says something doesn't mean it's right.

well I mean, do you know of any interceptions of Ki-46s by Hurricanes? I'll be glad to learn of it. They got several with P-40s not only in Burma but also around New Guinea. Shores mentions a couple of these and there are some other sources, history of the 49th FG has one or two.

Top speed doesn't always seem to be the only deciding factor either, as there are several examples of Ki-43s getting into long chases and shooting down P-51As and P-38s in the Osprey book.

I think in at least one case I remember where they caught Ki-46 with P-40 the latter was lightened, I think they took out a pair of guns.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

'Fraid I can't find them. I specifically searched that thread for P-43 and P-66 but only found references to CAF engagements, not the 23rd FG.

It might have been CATF but I don't see how that makes such a huge difference?

I have the 23rd FG history I'll go through it and review the Osprey book on the Ki-43 Aces as well, tomorrow.

 

[buffnut453]

It might have been CATF but I don't see how that makes such a huge difference?

I have the 23rd FG history I'll go through it and review the Osprey book on the Ki-43 Aces as well, tomorrow.

I said CAF not CATF. CAF were Chinese pilots with different training standards and experience levels than their USAAF equivalents. The proficiency of the man in the cockpit makes a huge difference...and, again, the P-43 never had self-sealing tanks or armour plate (AFAIK), all of which make for dubious comparisons with USAAF units that had a higher training standard and whose aircraft did have those protective measures.

 

[buffnut453]

well I mean, do you know of any interceptions of Ki-46s by Hurricanes? I'll be glad to learn of it. They got several with P-40s not only in Burma but also around New Guinea. Shores mentions a couple of these and there are some other sources, history of the 49th FG has one or two.

Top speed doesn't always seem to be the only deciding factor either, as there are several examples of Ki-43s getting into long chases and shooting down P-51As and P-38s in the Osprey book.

I think in at least one case I remember where they caught Ki-46 with P-40 the latter was lightened, I think they took out a pair of guns.

Again, you're trying to draw general conclusions from a very small sample set. Just because a Hurricane never intercepted a Ki--46 doesn't mean it couldn't. Again, the Buffalo succeeded but had worse performance than the Hurricane...which is precisely the point I'm trying to make. You can't extrapolate from a small sample set.

 

[Glider]

I think its worth noting that the evacuation of Crete was also done under exceptionally heavy air attack. Air attacks started on the 21st May and went on to the 1st June, the heaviest single day was the 22nd May, the details of which follow

07.05 - two large formations - exact number unknown
07.14 - seven aircraft
07.20 to 08.15 - continuous attacks - number unknown
08.16 - nineteen bombers - Ju87
09.30 - unknown number
09.47 - many aircraft too many to count - dive bombers
10.33 - nine high level bombers
11.46 - several large formations - dive bombers
12.34 - number unknown - dive bombers
12.57 - one formation - dive bombers
13.00 - three aircraft - Ju88
13.50 - unknown number
14.00 - number unknown - dive bombers
14.12 to 14.33 - continuous attacks - dive bombers
15.27 - unknown number - dive bombers
15.27 - unknown number - dive bombers
15.29 - twenty five - dive bombers
15.35 - nineteen - dive bombers
16.00 - five - dive bombers
16.26 - one - dive bombers
17.40 - nine - dive bombers

After this there were four more attacks but only by one to three aircraft

HMS Kandahar whilst trying to pick up survivors of HMS Fiji was attacked twenty two times between 14.45 and 19.30.

This was of course done without any fighter cover.

German records stated that on the 20th May, 327 bombers and 180 fighters were ready for operations over Crete and reading the German records is shows that approx. 95% were used to attack the fleet. German records show that forty four aircraft were lost to AA fire. Its safe to assume that most of these losses would be bombers which is quite a loss ratio.

There may be examples of more severe attacks on naval forces but I doubt many, anywhere would be so continuous, in one day

 

[Peter Gunn]

Personally, I quite like both the P-43 and P-66 but, then again, I'm an odd duck who swims against the flow.

You're not alone brother, not only do I have a well known (well, here at least) love for the Buff, I do love me some P-66. Always had a like for the P-43 with that big turbo in it too.

 

[Clayton Magnet]

Plenty of anecdotes on this, but I find the report from the Air Corps Material Division succinct:

P-40E vs. Hurricane:
The Hurricane can easily turn inside the P-40E and was able to continue turning after the P-40E had stalled. With the P-40E on the tail of the Hurricane it was possible for the Hurricane to tighten the circle and within 720° be in shooting position again. The P-40E squashes on turns, whereas the Hurricane does not.​

This would have been the Hurricane II that was sent over to the US.

Full report over at: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/P-40/PHQ-M-19-1307-A.pdf

**EDIT: I think I misunderstood your response. When I said 'no hope' I meant against the Ki-43. Whereas the Hurricanes -- being markedly better in this regard overall (though not vs. Japanese types) -- hung on to this method of fighting far too long.

Is it known what model of Spitfire was used in the test? It seems to have taken place around October of 1941, so I assume it was a Mk.V, but it could have been a Mk.II as well

 

[buffnut453]

You're not alone brother, not only do I have a well known (well, here at least) love for the Buff, I do love me some P-66. Always had a like for the P-43 with that big turbo in it too.

Yep...and the CW-21b. I like all those odd ducks...including the Grumman Duck.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

You're not alone brother, not only do I have a well known (well, here at least) love for the Buff, I do love me some P-66. Always had a like for the P-43 with that big turbo in it too.

Well, rejoice! Because both the P-43 and P-66 were indeed used in combat, it seems. I like both of them too by the way. The P-43 is like a smaller, slimmer P-47, and the P-66 is also a very interesting looking fighter with, I think, some potential but which never got developed.

Sorry guys we have had a bizarre incident around here (someone intentionally sawed through a power pole with a chainsaw, knocking out power for thousands of people and one cable / internet provider) and I have been without internet for the better part of 3 days). I finally realized I could make a hotspot with my phone and that my desktop computer has a wifi modem so I am back for the moment, for better or worse.

Anyway, regarding the P-43 and P-66 use in combat. It's true that there weren't that many of them, but there were not that many of several Allied types in Theater - P-38, P-51A and A-36, Vultee Vengeance, Mohawk IV, Mosquito, Hurricane IID and several others were all pretty rare in terms of total numbers. So was the P-40K, arguably the most successful variant of that plane in this Theater. But they all played a role there, often an important role.

And on the JAAF side, Ki-45s, Ki-44s, Ki-46, Ki-49s and others were also rare but by no means missing from the combat reports, or lacking in relevance.

That's kind of part of what makes this part of the war so fun and interesting to read about.

On the flip side though, unfortunately, there are not a lot of good sources for this Theater, especially those which include the Japanese data, so we have to maneuver a bit carefully. I mainly have this Osprey book on the Ki-43 aces, another one (not as good) on JAAF Aces, and Shores Bloody Shambles III which I just recently acquired and am still reading. Shores is the best of that bunch but not without limits and omissions, and unfortunately, I think his focus was mainly on the RAF / Commonwealth units so he mostly ignores China, which is where most of the US fighter units were based.

There are also a few decent online sources such as Pacificwrecks and Aviation of Japan, plus a little bit of technical data on good old WWiiaircraftperformance.org (many, many thanks for this archive again, to the people who did it, who I know are around here). But unfortunately not much on the Japanese stuff even there. I'll also give a shout out to Pacific Victory Roll which mostly deals with the IJN and the Pacific Islands but there are some relevant facts on that wonderful and very sadly now missing website, which we can still access through the (also wonderful) Wayback Machine.

That said, we do have some data. As I said I'm still reading through Shores, and I happened to just open the book randomly yesterday I-Ching style, and I immediately noticed two bits relevant to the conversation on pages 30 and 31. Page 30, on the left, is the passage I had previously mentioned where Shores notes that they had no luck catching Ki-46 with Hurricanes, but (he reluctantly admits) the yanks did catch a few with P-40s. I'll circle back to that later.

Page 31 notes that on 25 October 1942, during a raid by Ki-21 and Ki-48, escorted by 30 x Ki-43s from 50th Sentai and 32 by 64 Sentai, among the Allied losses were (and this is a direct quote "Also destroyed were two Republic P-43 Lancer fighters, recently delivered to the 51st for high altitude interceptions,"

The 51st he mentions there is the USAAF 51st Fighter Group, which as far as I know, had no Chinese pilots, not that I think that really makes so much difference.

Right after that Shores reluctantly notes that the Ki-46 piloted by Lt Teruo Ikeuchi was shot down either by a US 25th FS P-40, or by British heavy AA gunners. This is all on page 31.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Yep...and the CW-21b. I like all those odd ducks...including the Grumman Duck.

They have a CW-21 and a ton of other really unusual planes in the Naval Air Museum in Pensacola. I got a photo last time I was there, I'll try to find it.

 

[Just Schmidt]

Yep...and the CW-21b. I like all those odd ducks...including the Grumman Duck.

My favourite Curtiss is the Seahawk.

 

[buffnut453]

They have a CW-21 and a ton of other really unusual planes in the Naval Air Museum in Pensacola. I got a photo last time I was there, I'll try to find it.

I think theirs is a CW-22....but it's still a gorgeous aircraft (IMHO).

 

[RCAFson]

Is it known what model of Spitfire was used in the test? It seems to have taken place around October of 1941, so I assume it was a Mk.V, but it could have been a Mk.II as well

View attachment 767255

It was a Mk V, and IIRC, the same aircraft was used in NACA testing.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

I think theirs is a CW-22....but it's still a gorgeous aircraft (IMHO).

I am pretty sure they have both, which was interesting because you can see the progression / family resemblance, but let me search the ole photo archives and see what i can find

 

[buffnut453]

I am pretty sure they have both, which was interesting because you can see the progression / family resemblance, but let me search the ole photo archives and see what i can find

I'm pretty sure they don't. I don't think any CW-21s survive. They only built 31 CW-21s, all of which went to China, plus 24 CW-21Bs for the RNEIAF.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Ok, I believe this is a CW-21. I could be wrong.

As a little Lagniappe, here is a Vaught Vindicator

There is a ton of other interesting stuff in there (N1K2, Ju-52 inside and out, F7F, Bearcat, SBD, early Me 262, P-40B, some kind of like 1946 USN torpedo bomber, and too many flying boats and seaplanes to list), but as my internet is very limited right now I'll leave it at that.

 

[Wild_Bill_Kelso]

Is it known what model of Spitfire was used in the test? It seems to have taken place around October of 1941, so I assume it was a Mk.V, but it could have been a Mk.II as well

View attachment 767255

I don't know if this is the same test, but this is the famous Australian Spitfire V vs. P-40E dogfight test that was done with two ace pilots. They gave the nod to the Spitfire "especially at higher altitude", but the superior speed, diving ability and rolling capability of the P-40E gave it the edge in several of the engagements up to 16,000 ft.

I don't know if this test is preserved anywhere on WW2aircraftperformance but it should be.

I will post the text of that test to the currently active P-40 thread since it fits better there. I have posted it here.