Was the De Havilland Mosquito a good fighter?

[mhuxt]

I'm glad you brought that up.
Bob Braham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Bob Braham was the top scoring RAF Mosquito pilot. On June 25, 1944 his Mosquito FBVI was shot down by a German Fw-190 over Denmark. A good example as to what happens when a Mosquito pilot gets cocky and decides to dogfight with day fighters.

I believe Braham claimed two 190s shot down in similar circumstance on earlier intruder sorties.

 

[parsifal]

mossies like all te fighterrswere hard presswd when faced by a competent pilot in a se fighter in daylight.

nevertheless they enjoyed considerable success against se fighters mostly at night, but also by day.i recall they shot down something like 600 me109s and or FW190s from 1943 to the end of the war, for the loss of just over a hundred of their own. I dont have the source for that information just at hand, but will try and dig it out if I can remeber where I saw it.

 

[fastmongrel]

How did the Mossie compare to similar twin engine aircraft like the Me 110/210/410 twins and the Ju88.

 

[davebender]

It appears to me the Me-410 and Mosquito were evenly matched as both light bombers and for daylight aerial combat. The Me-410 was not used as a night fighter so that issue is moot.

The Ju-88G probably holds the all time world record for number of aerial victories at night. That doesn't prove it superior to night fighter versions of the Mosquito but I wouldn't bet against the world record holder.

 

[Glider]

As a day fighter the Ju88 was outclassed by the Mosquito. Over the Bay of Biscay which is the one place they met over a period of time, the Ju88's were ordered not to engage the Mosquito unless there was no alternative.

The above is quoted in either The Bloody Biscay or Conflict over the Bay.

 

[Jabberwocky]

mossies like all te fighterrswere hard presswd when faced by a competent pilot in a se fighter in daylight.

nevertheless they enjoyed considerable success against se fighters mostly at night, but also by day.i recall they shot down something like 600 me109s and or FW190s from 1943 to the end of the war, for the loss of just over a hundred of their own. I dont have the source for that information just at hand, but will try and dig it out if I can remeber where I saw it.

From my reading N/F Mosquitos probably only achieved about 800-900 kills from 1943 to the end of the war, the majority of which were against twin engine types.

 

[Glider]

From my reading N/F Mosquitos probably only achieved about 800-900 kills from 1943 to the end of the war, the majority of which were against twin engine types.

Be fair, most of the German bombers and Nightfighters were twin engined. You can only shoot down what is sent up against you.

 

[Messy1]

Only 800-900? Seems to be a decent number to me.

 

[cocky pilot]

I'm glad you brought that up.
Bob Braham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Bob Braham was the top scoring RAF Mosquito pilot. On June 25, 1944 his Mosquito FBVI was shot down by a German Fw-190 over Denmark. A good example as to what happens when a Mosquito pilot gets cocky and decides to dogfight with day fighters.

Dave Bender

The date 'Bob' Braham DSO Two Bars, DFC Two Bars, AFC was shot down was significant (compare to the normandy landings) He was not shot down by A Fw190 he ditched his plane after a combat with 2 Fw 190s at least one of which was piloted by a recognised expert and ace (Robert Spreckles). The link you provided says Braham downed a Fw 190 so what is your opinion of that individual combat "cocky german idiot in decrepit FW190 tries to better supperior twin engined bomber" In 15 Ranger missions he downed 9 enemy aircraft. Ranger missions were specifically to keep pressure on the LW to stop them being redeployed to Normandy. If any USAF Mustang pilot shot down 9 enemy planes on 15 missions then was forced to ditch after being jumped by 2 FW 190 he would be a respected ace but being a Canadian flying in the RAF he gets the handle "cocky mosquito pilot".

The LW in Normandy were outnumbered by about 11 to one in aircraft and 3 to 1 in single engined fighters but still the LW managed to down allied planes on a ratio of two to one . 'Bob' Braham DSO Two Bars, DFC Two Bars, AFC in his converted bomber did a damned sight better than most allied airmen in kills.

This thread is about the mosquito as a fighter, the mosquito was never a fighter it was a bomber 'Bob' Braham DSO Two Bars, DFC Two Bars, AFC did not take part in a mission to prove or disprove a preposition on a thread and I am damned sure he was much more aware of a mosquitos strengths and weaknesses than any contributor to this or any other forum.

The mosquito was a bomber acting in a fighter bomber role, at its introduction it could out run any allied and german fighter (no question). Later a german fighter may have been faster depending on the plane but intercepting a plane which is only 50mph slower requires a huge amount of airplanes. When you compare performance compare a single engined bomber (mustang spitfire typhoon) with a significant bomb to a mosquito carrying its bombs internally. One mosquito is equal to a flight of single engined fighter bombers which the LW couldnt ignore....THAT IS WHAT COCKY Bob Braham was doing, tying down the LW.

If you are going to quote wiki, quote it dont miss quote it and completely mis represent the situation 'Bob' Braham DSO Two Bars, DFC Two Bars, AFC was one of the most decorated airmen in the RAF/RCAF he deserves better than "cocky mosquito pilot". Since the consensus of forum experts has proved the mosquito to be crap in daylight combat 9 kills in 15 missions makes him a flying genius.

I note that no one has challenged your comments and one poster has even congratulated you for enlightening the situation.

You cant even read or quote a wiki page, what are your credentials to call 'Bob' Braham DSO Two Bars, DFC Two Bars, AFC a cocky mosquito pilot?

 

[cocky pilot]

de Havilland Mosquito - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I don't think so. Prior to 1944 we are talking about the Mosquito FB Mk VI fighter-bomber. Powered by two 1,460hp Merlin 21s or two 1,635hp Merlin 25s. Top speed was supposedly 368 to 384 mph. By 1943 most fighter aircraft could exceed this speed.

The biggest speed problem for allied fighters at lowish altitude was the V1 bomber the only planes capable of catching a V1 in level flight were the Tempest and Meteor The tempest got the highest kills and the mosquito the second.......if a mosquito only did 384 MPH how was that?


quote wiki
The Tempest fleet was built up to over 100 aircraft by September. Also, P-51 Mustangs and Griffon-engined Spitfire XIVs were tuned to make them almost fast enough, and during the short summer nights the Tempests shared defensive duty with de Havilland Mosquitoes. There was no need for airborne radar; at night the V-1's engine could be heard from 16 km (9.9 mi) away or more, and the exhaust plume was visible from a long distance. Wing Commander Roland Beamont had the 20 mm cannon on his Tempest adjusted to converge at 300 yd (270 m) ahead. This was so successful that all other aircraft in 150 Wing were thus modified.

In daylight, V-1 chases were chaotic and often unsuccessful until a special defence zone was declared between London and the coast, in which only the fastest fighters were permitted. Between June and 5 September 1944, the handful of 150 Wing Tempests shot down 638 flying bombs, with No. 3 Squadron RAF alone claiming 305. One Tempest pilot, Squadron Leader Joseph Berry, of No. 501 (Tempest) Squadron, shot down 59 V-1s, and Wing Commander Beamont destroyed 31.

Next most successful were the Mosquito (623 victories),[15] Spitfire XIV (303), and Mustang (232). All other types combined added 158. Even though it was not fully operational, the jet-powered Gloster Meteor was rushed into service with No. 616 Squadron RAF to fight the V-1s. It had ample speed but its cannons were prone to jamming, and it shot down only 13 V-1s.[16] These were the first air combats between two jet-powered aircraft in history, although that achievement is usually ascribed to the battles between manned jet aircraft during the Korea War in the fall of 1950.

In late 1944 a radar-equipped Vickers Wellington bomber was modified for use by the RAF's Fighter Interception Unit as what would now be described as an Airborne Early Warning and Control aircraft.[17] It operated at an altitude of some 4,000 feet (1,200 m) over the North Sea to control Mosquito fighters intercepting He 111s flying from Dutch airbases for airborne launches of the V-1.

 

[cocky pilot]

From when the mosquito was designed it was proposed by its designers that it would be 30MPH faster than a spitfire, based on what was known then about thrust drag and wetted area. This turned out to be true it was faster than a spitfire and at introduction all LW fighters. After introduction its speed is just a function of what engines were fitted and it was only ever a fast agile bomber, in its fighter bomber configuration 4 cannon and 4 MGs firing on one axis got everyones respect. The mosquito was never developed as a fighter which IMO was an oversight but as it was it was a formidable plane.


It has been posted that Mosquitos had escorts on missions, ALL bombers had escorts for the simple reason that a bomber (whatever it is) needs an escort because you cannot perform a precision bombing run with even one enemy interceptor in the region, a bomb run is a perfect target.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Because not all Mosquitoes are alike.

The top level speeds of the aircraft varied greatly, with equipment, fit, engine type, external stores and even the type of paint job. Early F II did around 358 mph (ducted exhausts, matt paint, Merlin 21s) to 370 mph (multi stubs, revised radar antenna, gloss paint). Mid war bomber versions (Merlin 21/23s, standard paint, multi stub ejectors) improved this to 385 mph. Very late in the war the final versions could top 435 mph (multi stub ejectors, Merlin 100 series engines, stores out, tanks dropped)

The Mosquito had exclusive province against V1's at night. That's why they scored such a large number of V1 kills.

Against V1's the aircraft had the boost of the engines increased, typically raised from +18 lbs to +21/23 lbs and fuel was switched to 150 octane to allow higher boost levels. The RAF also used NoX injection, delivering an additional 150 hp per engine, in some instances.

Anti 'Diver' Mosquitoes typically had strengthened noses and additional armour for the engines (because the V1 was a flying bomb and tended to spray nasty framgements all over the place), the .303s were removed (cutting weight and drag), night exhaust shrouds were removed in favour of multi-stub exhausts, radar aerials removed and the gaps in the aircraft frame were waxed and smoothed. These modifications could add anwhere from 10-25 mph in extra speed.

Most anti-Diver Mosquitoes were typically late productions FB Mk VI, NF Mk XII/XVIIs with Merlin 23/25s or NF Mk XIXs with Merlin 25s.

At the typical operating heights of a V1 (2000/3000 ft), these aircraft had top speeds of 330-345 mph.

Boosting the engines and the other modifications added another 20-30 mph for the aircraft, putting top speed at anywhere from 340-375 mph at these altitudes.

Mosquitoes would typically patrol at high cruise speeds at 5000-6000 ft. When a V1 was spotted – easy to do thanks to the exhaust plumes – they would go to full throttle and enter a gentle dive to overhaul to bomb. Mosquitoes would typically open up at 400 yards, double the distance they engaged fighters at, as there was a great fear of fragments from the flying bombs.

 

[mhuxt]

My db shows about 1360 air-to-air claims by Mossies of all types, exclusive of V-1s. I've about 90 claims for 190s, around 35 for 109s.

 

[buffnut453]

It has been posted that Mosquitos had escorts on missions, ALL bombers had escorts for the simple reason that a bomber (whatever it is) needs an escort because you cannot perform a precision bombing run with even one enemy interceptor in the region, a bomb run is a perfect target.

Cocky,

Really liked your post about Braham - I agree entirely. However, the above statement needs some clarification because the earliest Mosquito missions were unarmed bomber variants flown by 105 and 139 Sqns in low-level intruder missions during 1942. These missions lacked any fighter escort but they were highly successful (see "Low Attack" by John deL Wooldridge).

I know this thread is about the Mossie as a fighter not as a bomber but. let's face it, how many other aircraft designed as bombers achieved what the Mossie did? The simple fact that the Mossie in FB role could stand a fighting chance of inflicting losses on the Luftwaffe's fighters is testimony to the quality of the design. No, it wasn't as in the straight fighter role as an aircraft dedicated for that particular mission in the late-war period, but give me a Mossie over any of its contemporaries for the role it WAS designed to fulfill.

 

[davebender]

Mosquito had exclusive province against V1's at night.

I expect Mosquito night fighters attacked the He-111H22 launch aircraft. They would have a tough time catching a 400mph V1 missle flying @2,500 feet.

 

[Glider]

They did catch some of the V1's at night, numbers vary as to how many were shot down but the highest I have found was 471.

The Royal Air Force - History

 

[buffnut453]

"Aces High Vol 2" gives a total in excess of 500 V1s shot down by Mosquito units. It doesn't break out how many of these were shot down at night although only one unit, 605 Sqn, was not night-fighter equipped (it had FBMkVIs) which accounted for 71 V1s - take from that what you will. Some 23 pilots became "Diver" aces on Mosquitos.

One wonders whether Davebender ever has anything positive to say about a British-designed aircraft!

 

[davebender]

One wonders whether Davebender ever has anything positive to say about a British-designed aircraft!

Why? The Mosquito is one of my favorite WWII era aircraft. A great light bomber and night fighter. IMO the RAF should have given the Mosquito program a higher priority.

The Mosquito was not a good day fighter nor should anyone expect it to be. It wasn't designed for that role. That's what Spitfires were for.

 

[Milosh]

I expect Mosquito night fighters attacked the He-111H22 launch aircraft. They would have a tough time catching a 400mph V1 missle flying @2,500 feet.

The release height of the V1 from the He111s of KH54 was 1500'.

It was found that the Beaufighter was the better a/c as it handled better at lower speeds than the Mosquito. (the He111 climbed to release altitude at 110mph and released at 150mph) The Mosquito units raised a stink and the Beaus were pulled off He111/V1 interceptions.

To combat the He111/V1s, the British set up possibly the first AWACs. The Wellington would orbit about 30mi. off the Dutch coast in a race course pattern with the n/f in trail. When a target was found the Wellington would then vector the n/f to the target where the n/f's radar would take over the intercept.

see FlyPast April 1987

 

[FLYBOYJ]

From when the mosquito was designed it was proposed by its designers that it would be 30MPH faster than a spitfire, based on what was known then about thrust drag and wetted area. This turned out to be true it was faster than a spitfire and at introduction all LW fighters. After introduction its speed is just a function of what engines were fitted and it was only ever a fast agile bomber, in its fighter bomber configuration 4 cannon and 4 MGs firing on one axis got everyones respect. The mosquito was never developed as a fighter which IMO was an oversight but as it was it was a formidable plane.


It has been posted that Mosquitos had escorts on missions, ALL bombers had escorts for the simple reason that a bomber (whatever it is) needs an escort because you cannot perform a precision bombing run with even one enemy interceptor in the region, a bomb run is a perfect target.

Just curious - what's your source for that???