What airplane could have turned the tide of the war?

[ClayO]

As a twist to michael rauls' recent thread: what airplane could have turned the tide of the war, but didn't, because it didn't exist? I'm going to go with a German heavy bomber, which would have been much more effective than medium bombers at inflicting concentrated damage on British airfields early in the Battle of Britain, stopping the RAF's defense before it could get started.

Any other thoughts?

 

[The Basket]

X-Wings?
Issue is what aircraft? What year and can you build 10,000 of them.
We may mock the Swordfish but it's dropping torpedoes and doing the job far better than a non-existent aircraft that is still on the drawing board.
So the Fw-200 Condor is kinda the aircraft that could have done stuff and gone places but since you don't have 10,000 of them then it's just another minor player.

 

[michael rauls]

The obvious pick here if it came a little sooner( and thankfully it didn't) is the ME262. Still don't think it could have made Germany victories in an absolute sense but a mass produced 262 fielded in say mid 43 might make things costly enough to spawn another armastist. If I had to bet I'd say no but I think it might make it a posibiity that without it wouldn't exist.

 

[Kevin J]

On the other thread the DC-3 was mentioned as having turned the tide of the war. It certainly turned the tide in critical battles. So I'm going to plug the idea of more bomber transports than bombers for the RAF in the Far East to prevent the need for retreat after encirclement. So more Bristol Bombays less Blenheim's, more Handley Page Harrows less Hampdens.

 

[Greyman]

I've often wondered about the Battle of France with all of those Fairey Battles magically turned into Hurricane fighter-bombers ...

With 250-lb anti-submarine bombs instead of 250-lb general purpose bombs while we're at it.

 

[wingnuts]

On the other thread the DC-3 was mentioned as having turned the tide of the war. It certainly turned the tide in critical battles. So I'm going to plug the idea of more bomber transports than bombers for the RAF in the Far East to prevent the need for retreat after encirclement. So more Bristol Bombays less Blenheim's, more Handley Page Harrows less Hampdens.

The British never expected to be encircled, they totally underestimated the Japanese as did the US, despite warnings from those with experience. The far east was not a priority, the Brewster Buffalos and Hawker Hurricane would be more than a match for the bamboo and rice paper Japanese aircraft and their short-sighted, poorly trained pilots and you can disregard the scruffy Japanese army. Surprise, surprise. Bristol Bombays and HP Harrows would just end up as fodder for the Japanese Hayabusas and Zeros.

 

[Kevin J]

The British never expected to be encircled, they totally underestimated the Japanese as did the US, despite warnings from those with experience. The far east was not a priority, the Brewster Buffalos and Hawker Hurricane would be more than a match for the bamboo and rice paper Japanese aircraft and their short-sighted, poorly trained pilots and you can disregard the scruffy Japanese army. Surprise, surprise. Bristol Bombays and HP Harrows would just end up as fodder for the Japanese Hayabusas and Zeros.

You forgot that they had a general experienced in retreating. I never suggested flying bomber transports during the day.

 

[Kevin J]

I've often wondered about the Battle of France with all of those Fairey Battles magically turned into Hurricane fighter-bombers ...

With 250-lb anti-submarine bombs instead of 250-lb general purpose bombs while we're at it.

I don't understand you. Please explain your comments.

 

[ClayO]

The obvious pick here if it came a little sooner( and thankfully it didn't) is the ME262. Still don't think it could have made Germany victories in an absolute sense but a mass produced 262 fielded in say mid 43 might make things costly enough to spawn another armastist. If I had to bet I'd say no but I think it might make it a posibiity that without it wouldn't exist.

...plus a pilot training program to match. You're right, even then it would have probably only made things uglier, without changing the final outcome.

 

[Kevin J]

...plus a pilot training program to match. You're right, even then it would have probably only made things uglier, without changing the final outcome.

It's engines weren't suitable for use as a fighter until late 1944. That's why it was developed in 1944 as a fighter bomber first and used in the Arado 234 for recce.

 

[Kevin J]

It's engines weren't suitable for use as a fighter until late 1944. That's why it was developed in 1944 as a fighter bomber first and used in the Arado 234 for recce.

The Me 262 design staff get something to do while the engine bugs are sorted out and the Ar 234 only has to fly in straight lines at high speed.

 

[GrauGeist]

The obvious pick here if it came a little sooner( and thankfully it didn't) is the ME262. Still don't think it could have made Germany victories in an absolute sense but a mass produced 262 fielded in say mid 43 might make things costly enough to spawn another armastist. If I had to bet I'd say no but I think it might make it a posibiity that without it wouldn't exist.

The Me262 certainly was a game-changer in the fact that it's speed and firepower was something the Allies didn't have a viable solution for (at first) but it wasn't going to turn the tide of war.

Main reason is that it wasn't a fighter in the true sense, it was a "heavy fighter/interceptor".

If we want to really change the face of the European air war, then the He280 would be the go-to in this scenario. It was a true fighter that had speed, firepower and the ability to fight as well or better than any fighter for it's time.

So if the He280 was accepted into service when it was presented to the RLM, then we could have seen it in the skies over Europe by 1942. Additionally, if the Me262 had the 003 (working properly) as designed as well as being dedicated to it's original profile (not a schnell bomber), it could have entered service by late '42...enabling the He280 to fly top-cover for it.

Add to the mix, the Ar234 as high-speed recon/bomber and the Hs132 as a dedicated dive-bomber ground attack, and the Allies would have most certainly had their hands full.

But all these jets, working properly and in significant numbers, wouldn't have changed the tide of the war, but instead force the Allies to accelerate their jet programs to counter the Axis threat.

 

[Kevin J]

The Me262 certainly was a game-changer in the fact that it's speed and firepower was something the Allies didn't have a viable solution for (at first) but it wasn't going to turn the tide of war.

Main reason is that it wasn't a fighter in the true sense, it was a "heavy fighter/interceptor".

If we want to really change the face of the European air war, then the He280 would be the go-to in this scenario. It was a true fighter that had speed, firepower and the ability to fight as well or better than any fighter for it's time.

So if the He280 was accepted into service when it was presented to the RLM, then we could have seen it in the skies over Europe by 1942. Additionally, if the Me262 had the 003 (working properly) as designed as well as being dedicated to it's original profile (not a schnell bomber), it could have entered service by late '42...enabling the He280 to fly top-cover for it.

Add to the mix, the Ar234 as high-speed recon/bomber and the Hs132 as a dedicated dive-bomber ground attack, and the Allies would have most certainly had their hands full.

But all these jets, working properly and in significant numbers, wouldn't have changed the tide of the war, but instead force the Allies to accelerate their jet programs to counter the Axis threat.

The jet technology simply wasn't working in the timescales required to stop the allied air offensive. Perhaps the He 280 with centrifugal flow jet engines as an interceptor in late 1943, countered by the Mustang where quantity has a quality all of its own. The Ar 234 for recon in 1944, fast enough to be able to escape British interceptors. The Me 262 is still going to be a fighter bomber later in 1944, and even if it gets to be a bomber interceptor later, its closing speed on the bomber streams is so fast that only a German ace is going to be able to down a bomber.

 

[tomo pauk]

As a twist to michael rauls' recent thread: what airplane could have turned the tide of the war, but didn't, because it didn't exist? I'm going to go with a German heavy bomber, which would have been much more effective than medium bombers at inflicting concentrated damage on British airfields early in the Battle of Britain, stopping the RAF's defense before it could get started.

Any other thoughts?

Turning the tide of war probably means knocking UK out of war. To do that, an aircraft is needed per this thread. What Germans were lacking was a half-decent long range fighter - an enabler. Enabler in the sence that might be able to protect LW bombers from RAF Fighter Command interception.
Even the Bf 109E + drop tank very much improves the Luftwaffe's fortunes in Summer/Autumn of 1940, let alone something like the Ki 61. So let's kill any of the 2-engined fighters in the crib (=each one of those less means two engines are available), DB 601 engines go exclusively to the 1-engine fighter program, while I'd also have them flying with 3-4 HMGs instead of the mixed armament, or at least 2 HMGs + 2 cannons, each cannon with 90 rd drum. Drop tank facility is obviously a must.
Can our spanking new fighter do it on it's own? Nope, unless there is also a much improved supply of new & well trained pilots, increase in production to the level of at least 110% of what UK did with Hurricane and Spitfire in 1st 9 months of 1940, and appropriate tactics.

 

[michael rauls]

The Me262 certainly was a game-changer in the fact that it's speed and firepower was something the Allies didn't have a viable solution for (at first) but it wasn't going to turn the tide of war.

Main reason is that it wasn't a fighter in the true sense, it was a "heavy fighter/interceptor".

If we want to really change the face of the European air war, then the He280 would be the go-to in this scenario. It was a true fighter that had speed, firepower and the ability to fight as well or better than any fighter for it's time.

So if the He280 was accepted into service when it was presented to the RLM, then we could have seen it in the skies over Europe by 1942. Additionally, if the Me262 had the 003 (working properly) as designed as well as being dedicated to it's original profile (not a schnell bomber), it could have entered service by late '42...enabling the He280 to fly top-cover for it.

Add to the mix, the Ar234 as high-speed recon/bomber and the Hs132 as a dedicated dive-bomber ground attack, and the Allies would have most certainly had their hands full.

But all these jets, working properly and in significant numbers, wouldn't have changed the tide of the war, but instead force the Allies to accelerate their jet programs to counter the Axis threat.

Agreed. That's why I was thinking more in terms of making things costly enough to force another armastist like ww1 as a definition of tide turning and even then probably not. It would have however really costly for the Allies in my estamation and if the war drags on long enough maybe the public grows weary of war and a negotiated settlement is nescesary for political reasons. Again, I'm not saying this is a likely scenario but one that the fielding of large numbers of ME262S( and the others you listed) would have made a posibiity, even if unlikely that wouldn't have existed at all without it.

 

[tomo pauk]

In my not so humble opinion, Germany lost the options for winning the war before 1942. So unless they can somehow get a dozen of working ballistic missiles, each armed with nuclear warheads, Germany is doomed.

 

[GrauGeist]

In my not so humble opinion, Germany lost the options for winning the war before 1942. So unless they can somehow get a dozen of working ballistic missiles, each armed with nuclear warheads, Germany is doomed.

What Germany needed most, was to take their war seriously from the start.

Their aircraft production didn't peak until 1944, long after the war was lost. If they had produced even half again the actual numbers in 1939 onward, they may have had a chance.

 

[michael rauls]

In my not so humble opinion, Germany lost the options for winning the war before 1942. So unless they can somehow get a dozen of working ballistic missiles, each armed with nuclear warheads, Germany is doomed.

Militarily I agree but if the war is dragged out long enough with huge losses and it doesn't appear that there's any light at the end of the tunnel to the public then preasure for a political solution/armastist might become overwhelming particularly in the US.

 

[tomo pauk]

Militarily I agree but if the war is dragged out long enough with huge losses and it doesn't appear that there's any light at the end of the tunnel to the public then preasure for a political solution/armastist might become overwhelming particularly in the US.

No such thing was allowed back at Uncle Joe's.

 

[michael rauls]

No such thing was allowed back at Uncle Joe's.

Good point. And if the US and Britain are sueing for peace due to political pressure and it becomes basically a battle between the USSR and Germany do the Soviets still win? Probably, but I don't think it's guaranteed. So basically what I'm saying is not that the fielding of the 262 and other jets in large numbers earlier would have turned the tide but that there exists a posibiity it might have where there was zero posibiity of that after, in my estamation 42, or maybe even earlier, without them.