What if the P-39...

[delcyros]

What if the engine powering the P-39 was powered by an engine 15% stronger? As in, a 1350 hp powerplant?

As long as You don´t encounter high mach numbers (>.7), which isn´t the case here, You may rely on the following equitation:
Doubling the power increases the speed by 50% (all other factors beeing equal).
For the 1200 hp powered original P-39Q would this mean that a 1350 hp powerplant with comparable altitude loss figures and identic weight should add some 3.125% speed. So The P-39Qmod should go 388mp/h instead of 376 mp/h max at best altitude (close enough).
Naturally, the weight would increase as would the cooling needs. Therefore, You would expect something around 385 mp/h max. Some exhoust designs do add thrust relative to speed, so such a device would push the plane closer to 390 mp/h, respectively.
The acceleration would be better as would be powerload and climb rate as well.

 

[Salim]

Thank you for your answer.

 

[exec228]

I also think that the YVa-23 is excellent altough a domestic US cannon in the area of 25mm should work best. Perhaps remove the big gun for 3-4 fuselage mounted 15mm high velocity Cal.60´s?

soviets tried VYa for LaGG-3, some samples flown (as wel as some with Taubin's 23mm MP-6), but recoil power was too high for conventional fighter. it could be coped only by heavier Ilyushin-2.

 

[Holedigger]

If my memory serves(and a quick check in Google to make sure I'm not way off base) the Russians used the P-39 quite effectively as an air superiority fighter on the Eastern Front. How can an aircraft produce several dozen Russian aces if the plane can hardly fly? It would be interesting to see the win/lose ratio of the Russian P-39s as opposed to other front line Russian fighters.

Seems the P-39, as it was, held it's own!

Chris
Images and Illustrations at
http://www.printroom.com/pro/ShepArtStudio

 

[Marshall_Stack]

Since some of you sound like you know what you are talking about, how does changing the wing to laminar (as the P-63) change the performance? Less drag and smoother air flow around the wings? Is the fuel capacity affected?

 

[exec228]

imho soviets were provided with kingcobra under condition not to use them in europe. so the only kills of kigcobra are two unidentified ki-27 or ki-43 mad by soviet 17IAP on 1945-08-15.
therefore it would be hard to find combat experience with kingcobra.

 

[Marshall_Stack]

Why couldn't the Russians use the P-63s in the ETO?

 

[MacArther]

OK, I'll be totally serious as to why I'm asking all these question (as I did in most previous threads). I'm planning to write a series of 'modern fantasy' novels and the P-39 and Buffalo are going to make 'modified' appearances, if you take my meaning. I've even begun writing the first story... about time, too, I should have started months ago!

Really? Join the club...I'm still working out my kinks and issues, and trying to make a believable story, but it won't be hitting any shelves now or maybe ever (it is online, so hurrah for me).

imho soviets were provided with kingcobra under condition not to use them in europe. so the only kills of kigcobra are two unidentified ki-27 or ki-43 mad by soviet 17IAP on 1945-08-15.
therefore it would be hard to find combat experience with kingcobra.

Why would they not use them in Europe? After all that was where they were primarily fighting, and the Russians liked to throw everything at the Germans that were retreating. Also, the P63 was a good ground attack platform, so it is quite reasonable that even if the Russains were not supposed to use the P63 on the European front, they likely did. Also, the first deliveries and use of the P63 by the Russians is in the later part of 1944, when the German Army on the Earstern front still had pleanty of fight in them.

 

[Holedigger]

As for the Buffalo, it has also been underrated by many. Considered "Obsolete" at the start of the war. The Finns had something like a 26-1 kill ratio vs the Soviets and then the Germans........outdated aircraft......somehow I believe there is a lot more in HOW the plane is used as opposed to just "superior" equipment.

Chris
Images and Illustrations at
http://www.printroom.com/pro/ShepArtStudio

 

[Salim]

Really? Join the club...I'm still working out my kinks and issues, and trying to make a believable story, but it won't be hitting any shelves now or maybe ever (it is online, so hurrah for me).

Same here guy, I'm gonna publish it on Sffworld.com! Good luck. Email me sometime and maybe we can get together to exchange information and ideas.

As for the Buffalo, it has also been underrated by many. Considered "Obsolete" at the start of the war. The Finns had something like a 26-1 kill ratio vs the Soviets and then the Germans........outdated aircraft......somehow I believe there is a lot more in HOW the plane is used as opposed to just "superior" equipment.

There's a lot to say about the Buffalo, but there's two main points to make.

1: The Finns solved many problems that troubled the Buffalo in the first place... something which the British and Americans never bothered to do. One thing which I found interesting is the fact that, even though the intended engine for the Buffalo (and many were made with such) a 1200hp Wright Cyclone engine... but the ones that the Finns used had an underpowered 950hp engine, and they still used it admirably!

2: The Finns had better tactics and less able opposition... the USMC was fighting one of the finest air forces in the world during World War 2 and they had modern, up-to-date aircraft at that time, and they used incorrect tactics and were caught at a disadvantage to boot! (hence the reason why the Buffalo got such an undeserved reputation). The Finns not only got their stuff put together, but they also were against inferior Soviet pilots flying second-line aircraft (most fighters thrown against the Finns weren't the latest in the Soviet inventory).

 

[Holedigger]

Yup, all 48 of those outdated Hurricanes they took down.....obsolete secondrate aircraft... yes they took down a bunch of older and slower stuff too. Tactics, training, and fighting for your own home have more to do with winning than just horsepower, firepower and turn radius!

Soviet pilot training did leave a bit to be desired (Fly or I'll shoot you is not good for moral) as seen by the German aces running up three figure counts against them!

Chris
Images and Illustrations at
http://www.printroom.com/pro/ShepArtStudio

 

[delcyros]

how does changing the wing to laminar (as the P-63) change the performance? Less drag and smoother air flow around the wings? Is the fuel capacity affected?

Laminar flow wings do generally add a lot of space in the wings for fuel buncerage. You may recalculate the hp safings of the aerodynamic cleanings done for the P-63 in comparison to our P-39Q (simplified):
-----------P63---------------------P39Q
weight: 6375lbs-10500lbs-----------5680lbs - 7651 lbs
speed:410 mp/h @ 25000ft.---------376 mp/h @ 25000 ft.
power: 1325 hp max.----------------1200 hp max

You will notice the 10.4% power increase of the P-63. Just add those power to the P-39Q would translate to 386 mp/h (average) speed at given altitude. But there still is a speed difference of 24 mp/h! This difference should reasonably be credited to airframe cleaning, laminar flow wings and exhoust power designs.
It would require 6.22% speed increase or 24.87% power increase for the P-39Q with a P63 powerplant to reach 410 mp/h. This would require a powerplant doing some 1655 hp or in other words, the netto aerodynamic safings of the P-63 in comparison to our P-39Q are equal to ~330 hp power! That´s a lot. The actual powersafing is even greater as weight also increased a lot.

 

[Marshall_Stack]

I read about how the P-39 is such a dag above 12,000 or so feet, but how come this criticism comes up such more on this airplane than the P-40? They have similar engines and I would think the P-39 would be lighter. Is it because the P-40 has bigger wings and therefore more lift?

 

[exec228]

Why couldn't the Russians use the P-63s in the ETO?

dunno
P-63 Kingcobra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"By a 1943 agreement, P-63s were disallowed for Soviet use against Germany and were supposed to be concentrated in the Soviet Far East for an eventual attack on Japan."

 

[MacArther]

Dude, you do know that Wikipedia is like the last place you should be checking for information right?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Something to think about folks.

The P-39 was a classic example of the military adding and then changing requirements on a contractor. The XP-39 performed well and showed great promise until some genius decided for the aircraft to have a "multi-role" mission. The contractor (Bell) catered to the need of the customer and eventually created this alleged dog that couldn't get out of its own way. At the same time you have the Russians who made great use of the aircraft and even Chuck Yeager was an advocate for this aircraft stating it was his favorite WW2 fighter. The P-39 actually had a very touchy center of gravity making it quite unstable in some situations but at the same time this is a highly desirable characteristic for a fighter, providing you have a pilot who knows how to tame her. Just like anything else, when you had well trained pilots that training could mean the difference. Case in point (and I'll repeat myself on this) the 39th FS was doing quite well over New Guinea with the P-39, the squadron had at least a 2 to 1 kill ratio over their opponents during the late summer of 1942. When the P-38 came along it drove up the kill rate considerably. Tom Lynch, Buzz Wagner and about a dozen more became aces in this dog, months before the P-38 was on the scene. So much for the P-39 for being the ultimate dog.

 

[P38 Pilot]

Kinda sad. Read that whole article and chuckled at the "if a pilot sneezed, it would make the plane spin."

 

[Matt308]

Good for you P38. Payin' attention.

 

[exec228]

not too dramatical, ihmo. just unusual COG.

p-63 site:avia-hobby.ru - Google Search
interesting - P-63s listed appear in 1945/aug, not earlier.
with that august, they could not be used against Germany, of course.

 

[P38 Pilot]

Good for you P38. Payin' attention.

Yep.