When is a Spitfire a Spitfire?

[Shortround6]

Is that a MkXIV potato or a Mk14? With only 24 variants of Spitfire plus 4 PR versions and then 8 versions of Seafire Some of them need a new name.

Hmmm

Spiteject
Spitpop
Spitflame
Spitsalvo

Expectoratefire
Hawkfire
Gobfire
Spittlefire
Phlemfire

I vote we keep the Mark numbers

 

[pbehn]

Hmmm

Spiteject
Spitpop
Spitflame
Spitsalvo

Expectoratefire
Hawkfire
Gobfire
Spittlefire
Phlemfire

I vote we keep the Mark numbers

The PR versions could be the Supermarine Selfie?

 

[SaparotRob]

Could you build a MK XII using MK I or II tooling, or good parts of it. Were major assemblies interchangeable?

I can understand the MK XXs an up perhaps not being "Spitfires" (different wing) but some of the others dis use at least some parts.

In some cases it is "Marketing" in other cases it is because the design has really changed.

Greg mentioned the WIldcat earlier. Early Wildcats/Martlets used Wright Cyclone engine, early Wildcats/Martlets had four guns. A late Wildcat/Martlet using a Wright Cyclone engine and four guns and having a taller tail should be called what? Not a Wildcat?

Years ago I read of the FM2 being called "The Wilder Wildcat". Could have been from a contemporary General Motors brochure.

 

[Airframes]

Somehow, Supermarine Potato Mk.21 doesn't sound quite right ................

 

[ThomasP]

Are we talking about the European Swallow or the African Swal...er... East African Swal...er...South Afr...er...??

"Monty Python and the Holy Grail: Airspeed Velocity of an Unladen Swallow"

European Swallow

East African (Cliff) Swallow

South African (Cliff) Swallow

 

[wuzak]

Could you build a MK XII using MK I or II tooling, or good parts of it. Were major assemblies interchangeable?

The Mk XII was based on the MK V, which was based on the Mk II. So very possibly.

There may have been some stronger components, such as the longerons (I can't recall if these were added for the XII)), but the majority of the structure was the same.

The wings were the same as the Mk V.

I can understand the MK XXs an up perhaps not being "Spitfires" (different wing) but some of the others dis use at least some parts.

In some cases it is "Marketing" in other cases it is because the design has really changed.

Originally the 21-24 were to be called the Victor. Maybe marketing did get a say in retaining the name Spitfire.

 

[wuzak]

I've collected some data for my thread but i can post here some on the Spitfire, probably miss some experimentals/trials only and only to 1944
the Spitfires had 3 wings or maybe better a wings with 3 different wingspan
the following Merlin engines:
II, III, XII, 45, 45M, 46, 47, 50, 50A, 50M, 55, 55M, 56, 61, 63, 63A, 64, 66, 70, 71; counting also the Seafire we need add 32
the following Griffon engines:
III, IV, 61, 65

The wingspan on the standard wings (prior to the 20-series Spitfires) could be fitted with three different wing tips - standard, clipped and extended. There was no structural change to the wing to achieve this, as the wing tip was a bolt-on part.

The wing itself evolved over time, with changing armament requirements and structural revisions. And, of course, the PR wing with additional leading edge fuel.

The 20-series wing was the largest wing change for the Spitfire.

 

[buffnut453]

Are we talking about the European Swallow or the African Swal...er... East African Swal...er...South Afr...er...??

"Monty Python and the Holy Grail: Airspeed Velocity of an Unladen Swallow"

European Swallow
View attachment 580879

East African (Cliff) Swallow
View attachment 580880

South African (Cliff) Swallow
View attachment 580878

Great pics...but shame they don't show the optional structure for carrying coconuts. Pictures of that particular configuration are almost impossible to find...and even harder to replicate in 1/72 scale!

 

[pbehn]

Somehow, Supermarine Potato Mk.21 doesn't sound quite right ................

Wasn't the Blackburn Spud a floatplane cargo/passenger version of the Skua?

 

[nuuumannn]

When the dataplate sez it's a Spitfire, it's a Spitfire.

This is a full-scale reproduction of a Spitfire Mk.I. It was almost entirely built from scratch and retains very little of its wartime self, but its dataplate states that it is Spitfire Mk.I N3200, so who are we to argue?

0707 Duxford Spitfire I

 

[rochie]

When the dataplate sez it's a Spitfire, it's a Spitfire.

This is a full-scale reproduction of a Spitfire Mk.I. It was almost entirely built from scratch and retains very little of its wartime self, but its dataplate states that it is Spitfire Mk.I N3200, so who are we to argue?

View attachment 5809100707 Duxford Spitfire I

Bingo !

 

[PAT303]

All of them are Spitfires, the reason a 1939 Mk1 is different from a 1945 MkXIV is simply due to development, the war progress, so did the Spit.

 

[buffnut453]

Entirely concur.

I don't think the earlier analogy to car production is appropriate because the only thing a '67 Mustang has in common with a modern Mustang is the name. The aviation equivalent would be trying to claim that the P-38 is the same as the F-35 because they're both called Lightning and both were/are made by Lockheed.

At the end of the day, countries had their own rules regarding aircraft naming conventions. If Spitfire was good enough for the UK to cover all variants of the marque in the period 1938-1952, then it should be good enough for us today.

 

[The Basket]

That depends on what is what.

My issue is that one cannot discuss the Spitfire in general. Since it has many marks and many years.

So if to answer the question how good the Spitfire is will depend on which mark or timeframe.

Since Mitchell died early then to say he was the designer of the Spitfire is false. He was the chief designer of the prototype.

 

[pbehn]

Originally the 21-24 were to be called the Victor. Maybe marketing did get a say in retaining the name Spitfire.

As a child the Spitfire was frequently called the Vickers Supermarine Spitfire. I seem to remember that being on some Airfix "art work" but cant find any now, I did find this, so maybe marketing with an eye on post war did play a part. Surpermarine had been part of Vickers since 1928.

 

[Timppa]

If you look at long lived designs like the Bf 109 or Spitfire, the early aircraft have little in common with the last versions so should we still lump all aircraft as Spitfires?
Should we think of them as new designs?

R.J. Mitchell probably would have liked the idea of renaming subsequent Spitfire variants: ""Spitfire was just the sort of bloody silly name they would choose. "
As for Germans, they have never bothered about fancy names. (Think of Audi/Mercedes/BMW -cars, numbers and letters only)

 

[buffnut453]

R.J. Mitchell probably would have liked the idea of renaming subsequent Spitfire variants: ""Spitfire was just the sort of bloody silly name they would choose. "
As for Germans, they have never bothered about fancy names. (Think of Audi/Mercedes/BMW -cars, numbers and letters only)

Except VW (owned by Audi) Golf, Passat, Tiguan etc.

 

[Vincenzo]

Except VW (owned by Audi) Golf, Passat, Tiguan etc.

owned by Porsche would me more on target

 

[Admiral Beez]

When the dataplate sez it's a Spitfire, it's a Spitfire.

This is a full-scale reproduction of a Spitfire Mk.I. It was almost entirely built from scratch and retains very little of its wartime self, but its dataplate states that it is Spitfire Mk.I N3200, so who are we to argue?

View attachment 5809100707 Duxford Spitfire I

Is this a Spitfire? I vote yes, well in truth an enjoyable project to watch building a tribute to the Spitfire.

 

[Reluctant Poster]

Spitefull had a brand new wing.
View attachment 580843
Not only a different planeform but it was laminar flow (or they were trying for it) so the the airfoil was completely different. You also had the change in landing gear and the different radiator set up.

Tempest likewise got a new wing with a different airfoil.

The fuselage was changed as well. The cockpit is higher to improve vision changing the profile. The fuel tanks are a completely different arrangement.