Where do you find propeller data

[Zipper730]

For example, where do you find data on blade-angle range, pitch-range, activity factor, overall efficiency and stuff like that for calculating thrust in aircraft.

The following might find this interesting: drgondog , FLYBOYJ , GregP S Shortround6 , D Deleted member 68059 , X XBe02Drvr

I'm interested in figuring out the ways to calculate these figures myself. I've actually started watching math videos on YouTube (sad that YouTube is better at teaching me math than professional teachers)

 

[XBe02Drvr]

For example, where do you find data on blade-angle range, pitch-range, activity factor, overall efficiency and stuff like that for calculating thrust in aircraft.

The following might find this interesting: drgondog , FLYBOYJ , GregP S Shortround6 , D Deleted member 68059 , X XBe02Drvr

I'm interested in figuring out the ways to calculate these figures myself. I've actually started watching math videos on YouTube (sad that YouTube is better at teaching me math than professional teachers)

My interest in propellers is operational more than theoretical. Afraid I'm not very useful in pursuit of the esoteric data. Sorry.

 

[MiTasol]

Same here.

 

[Zipper730]

X XBe02Drvr , the idea was to determine how much thrust was being produced roughly at speed.

 

[drgondog]

For example, where do you find data on blade-angle range, pitch-range, activity factor, overall efficiency and stuff like that for calculating thrust in aircraft.

The following might find this interesting: drgondog , FLYBOYJ , GregP S Shortround6 , D Deleted member 68059 , X XBe02Drvr

I'm interested in figuring out the ways to calculate these figures myself. I've actually started watching math videos on YouTube (sad that YouTube is better at teaching me math than professional teachers)

You have to start with published manufacturer data from Ham Std, AP and Curtis. Those docs are the source for Performance Analysis by NAA, Republic, Grumman.

The propeller chart efficiencies are extracted from chart for calculated values of efficiency without losses and corrected values due to compressibility. These differ with Tip Mach No, prop thickness and AoA. These values are required to combine with activity factor and prop thickness to apply corrections to the blade's ability to absorb the power of the engine to develop the power coefficient

That is just one aspect of the journey. For recip and Especially In-line engines, the exotic elements of
1. Exhaust gas thrust Tjet, which is function of mass flow of exhaust gasses in slugs/sec, and the velocity of the ejected gas, the ratio of manifold pressure to outside ambient pressure, the angle of the exhaust stacks to CL of Thrust, and the area of the exhaust stacks.
2. Calculated Thrust Horsepower Delta of Exhaust Thrust as function of Velocity of airframe x Tjet/375.
3. Add to Thrust Horsepower of Prop/Engine system.
4. Gather data to calculate momentum losses of carb air -------> function of specific air consumption, fuel to air ratio, BHP, and Velocity.
5. Because air velocity to carb is immersed in prop slipstream, a correction factor for increased drag is required.
6. Ditto for pressure drag losses due to cooling drag.
7. Calculate pressure drag losses for airframe immersed in prop slipstream.
8. Sum up Thp equation to include base HPower Avaliable plus exhaust Thrust HP, minus Thp loss due to Carb and minus Thp loss due to Cooling Drag,minus Thp loss due to airframe immersed in prop slipstream.

You have already developed tables for Thp as function of Velocity, CL and CD and factored Thp available after reducing based on Parasite Drag, Induced Drag, Mach No corrections to Parasite Drag - as function of Reynolds Number ratio (RN of Wind tunnel Test/RN of actual velocity conditions) ------> then moved to the Propeller and exhaust and carb and cooling thrust and drag calcs discussed above.

This is my one and only discussion on this subject. It makes my head hurt to go back 50 years and pull the 'stuff' together.

One last note, several of the base charts were developed for the airframe companies and used by engineering groups for carb and mass flow rates (R-R and Allison for example) and Prop data (HamStd, Aero Prd, Curtiss). You are unlikely to gather all of what you need to develop a model.

Now you are ready to make Performance Estimates.

 

[Snautzer01]

My head hurts.

 

[drgondog]

My head hurts.

Mine also. Required assignment in Master's curricula - far easier for jet engine. I did develop an excel spreadsheet for a discussion with Lednicer, based on NAA Performance Report on P-51B. Wish I had seen it much earlier.

The biggest blank spot is lack of access to the HamStd data and R-R data

 

[Snautzer01]

Mine also. Required assignment in Master's curricula - far easier for jet engine. I did develop an excel spreadsheet for a discussion with Lednicer, based on NAA Performance Report on P-51B. Wish I had seen it much earlier.

The biggest blank spot is lack of access to the HamStd data and R-R data

Yes but you understand that shit. I only read he post you made and go...

 

[FLYBOYJ]

For example, where do you find data on blade-angle range, pitch-range, activity factor, overall efficiency and stuff like that for calculating thrust in aircraft.

I'm interested in figuring out the ways to calculate these figures myself. I've actually started watching math videos on YouTube (sad that YouTube is better at teaching me math than professional teachers)

I just rely on manufacturer's data In the civilian world much can be found in the type certificate data sheet

 

[drgondog]

For example, where do you find data on blade-angle range, pitch-range, activity factor, overall efficiency and stuff like that for calculating thrust in aircraft.

The following might find this interesting: drgondog , FLYBOYJ , GregP S Shortround6 , D Deleted member 68059 , X XBe02Drvr

I'm interested in figuring out the ways to calculate these figures myself. I've actually started watching math videos on YouTube (sad that YouTube is better at teaching me math than professional teachers)

Look to 1.) Hamilton Standard Propellers, "Hamilton Standard Method of Propeller Performance Calculations", b.) NACA Advanced Restricted Report, dated November 1942, "Effect of Exhaust Stack Shape on Design and Performance of the Individual Cylinder Exhaust Gas Propulsion System" and c.) GALCIT Report 390, dated Feb 1944, "Wind Tunnel Tests o on a 1/4 scale North American Model 102 (P-51B) Airplane Equipped with Running Propellers".

 

[special ed]

That should keep the Zipper busy for a while.

 

[Zipper730]

You have to start with published manufacturer data from Ham Std, AP and Curtis. Those docs are the source for Performance Analysis by NAA, Republic, Grumman.

Is there anyplace to find that online?

The propeller chart efficiencies are extracted from chart for calculated values of efficiency without losses and corrected values due to compressibility. These differ with Tip Mach No, prop thickness and AoA. These values are required to combine with activity factor and prop thickness to apply corrections to the blade's ability to absorb the power of the engine to develop the power coefficient

So you'd have to calculate the tip-speed and apply correction factors? At least I know how to calculate tip-speed.

That is just one aspect of the journey. For recip and Especially In-line engines, the exotic elements of
1. Exhaust gas thrust Tjet, which is function of mass flow of exhaust gasses in slugs/sec, and the velocity of the ejected gas, the ratio of manifold pressure to outside ambient pressure, the angle of the exhaust stacks to CL of Thrust, and the area of the exhaust stacks.
2. Calculated Thrust Horsepower Delta of Exhaust Thrust as function of Velocity of airframe x Tjet/375.
3. Add to Thrust Horsepower of Prop/Engine system.
4. Gather data to calculate momentum losses of carb air -------> function of specific air consumption, fuel to air ratio, BHP, and Velocity.
5. Because air velocity to carb is immersed in prop slipstream, a correction factor for increased drag is required.
6. Ditto for pressure drag losses due to cooling drag.
7. Calculate pressure drag losses for airframe immersed in prop slipstream.
8. Sum up Thp equation to include base HPower Avaliable plus exhaust Thrust HP, minus Thp loss due to Carb and minus Thp loss due to Cooling Drag,minus Thp loss due to airframe immersed in prop slipstream.

You have already developed tables for Thp as function of Velocity, CL and CD and factored Thp available after reducing based on Parasite Drag, Induced Drag, Mach No corrections to Parasite Drag - as function of Reynolds Number ratio (RN of Wind tunnel Test/RN of actual velocity conditions) ------> then moved to the Propeller and exhaust and carb and cooling thrust and drag calcs discussed above.

This is my one and only discussion on this subject. It makes my head hurt to go back 50 years and pull the 'stuff' together.

One last note, several of the base charts were developed for the airframe companies and used by engineering groups for carb and mass flow rates (R-R and Allison for example) and Prop data (HamStd, Aero Prd, Curtiss). You are unlikely to gather all of what you need to develop a model.

I see your point. I figure just figuring out the propeller's thrust would be the starting point...

Look to 1.) Hamilton Standard Propellers, "Hamilton Standard Method of Propeller Performance Calculations", b.) NACA Advanced Restricted Report, dated November 1942, "Effect of Exhaust Stack Shape on Design and Performance of the Individual Cylinder Exhaust Gas Propulsion System" and c.) GALCIT Report 390, dated Feb 1944, "Wind Tunnel Tests o on a 1/4 scale North American Model 102 (P-51B) Airplane Equipped with Running Propellers".

Okay, those sound like outstanding sources. Can't guarantee any success but I'll see what I can do.

I just rely on manufacturer's data In the civilian world much can be found in the type certificate data sheet

If I may ask, where do you find that?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

If I may ask, where do you find that?

RGL Home Page

rgl.faa.gov

Here is an an example of an older "TCDS." Newer ones are more detailed in their information. You can look up the information by manufacturer or model (if known). I can tell you that propellers can be pretty in-depth with models between blades and hubs (if we're talking constant speed props) so it takes a bit to fully understand the data.

 

[Zipper730]

RGL Home Page

rgl.faa.gov

So, I assume you'd either enter model number or search for propellers?

BTW: What does TCDS stand for and, is there any kind of meaning with propeller designations such as 6091A-0?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

So, I assume you'd either enter model number or search for propellers?

Model number or manufacturer - sometimes an individual or organization may hold a TCDS even though they were not the original manufacturer.

Think of a TCDS as the FAA's recognized "birth certificate" of a given product

BTW: What does TCDS stand for and, is there any kind of meaning with propeller designations such as 6091A-0?

Type Certificate Data Sheet

As far as the numerical meaning - if it's not indicated in the TCDS you'll have to go to the manufacturer, usually in a maintenance manual. Sometimes you can Google the designation and a website may give you a breakdown.

As mentioned, propellers can be complicated

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I believe 6091A-0 might be related to a HS drawing

 

[Aeroweanie]

For example, where do you find data on blade-angle range, pitch-range, activity factor, overall efficiency and stuff like that for calculating thrust in aircraft.

The following might find this interesting: drgondog , FLYBOYJ , GregP S Shortround6 , D Deleted member 68059 , X XBe02Drvr

I'm interested in figuring out the ways to calculate these figures myself. I've actually started watching math videos on YouTube (sad that YouTube is better at teaching me math than professional teachers)

The attached might help - its stuff I've collected in my career. I'm still looking for similar stuff for the Ham-Std 6153-18, 6261-0, -1, -2 or -3, 6405-18, 6495-20, 6105-8 and 6477-0 blades (all used on the DC-3).

 

[Zipper730]

Look to 1.) Hamilton Standard Propellers, "Hamilton Standard Method of Propeller Performance Calculations"

I searched and was unable to find this using Google or Bing (though the Google did get me to hamilton-standard's page; Bing got me bubkis).

b.) NACA Advanced Restricted Report, dated November 1942, "Effect of Exhaust Stack Shape on Design and Performance of the Individual Cylinder Exhaust Gas Propulsion System"

This I found here.

c.) GALCIT Report 390, dated Feb 1944, "Wind Tunnel Tests o on a 1/4 scale North American Model 102 (P-51B) Airplane Equipped with Running Propellers".

I am unable to find this on Google or Bing. Are there better locations to search?

The attached might help - its stuff I've collected in my career.

It seems the propellers you have cover the Convair B-36F, the Douglas C-133, the Lockheed 1649. I'm not exactly sure if everything's in order because the B-36 is powered by R-4360's, the C-133 by T34's, and the 1649 by R3350's.

While this is a crash-course for me: Having found some data on general aviation propellers, which may not work because of the fact that the older props generally had variations in chord and C/L as a function of radius from center to tip, and the formulas described don't factor in variable chord and CL as a function of radius as well as some searching on Google.

It appears that ß = blade angel; b = blade section in feet (I assume this is the chord); while I'm not sure what the difference between integrated and coefficient of lift, IIRC: Coefficient of lift was basically the amount of lift provided to calculated dynamic pressure or force (BTW: Does coefficient of lift and coefficient of thrust on a propeller mean the same thing?)

 

[Aeroweanie]

I searched and was unable to find this using Google or Bing (though the Google did get me to hamilton-standard's page; Bing got me bubkis).

This I found here.

I am unable to find this on Google or Bing. Are there better locations to search?



It seems the propellers you have cover the Convair B-36F, the Douglas C-133, the Lockheed 1649. I'm not exactly sure if everything's in order because the B-36 is powered by R-4360's, the C-133 by T34's, and the 1649 by R3350's.

While this is a crash-course for me: Having found some data on general aviation propellers, which may not work because of the fact that the older props generally had variations in chord and C/L as a function of radius from center to tip, and the formulas described don't factor in variable chord and CL as a function of radius as well as some searching on Google.

It appears that ß = blade angel; b = blade section in feet (I assume this is the chord); while I'm not sure what the difference between integrated and coefficient of lift, IIRC: Coefficient of lift was basically the amount of lift provided to calculated dynamic pressure or force (BTW: Does coefficient of lift and coefficient of thrust on a propeller mean the same thing?)

Try this:

 

[Aeroweanie]

And this: