Which airframe (2 Viewers)

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Rare Bear runs a 'boil-off' cooling system. The oil coolers are submersed in methanol. The heat is transferred to the liquid and vented out the rear of the plane as steam.

Newly minted P-51s (3/4 scale) are already raced in the sport class.

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Thanks for all the info .

Im curious though , I can understand back in the late 30s cooling technology was a bit crude compared to today , why cant a plane run conventional radiator/oil cooler set up ?

Will cooling be as necessary if the plane uses Methanol/Nitro as fuel ?

Dropping the compression can also help cool the engine down if it runs too hot . I guess its baby steps here . I know many cars run 14:1 + comp ratios on methanol , I think 10 : 1 would be a starting point .

I'll be in Poland late this year and plan to visit the museum and try and see what I can find out . I will also be attending Reno to get some ideas on how everything works

As for using original parts , well , Id love to run an original DB-601/603 block . Everything else will be custom , crank/rods/pistons etc . 4000 hp is the goal using turbos . So far I havent really been told not to use an original block . I wouldnt want to use an original plane for the purpose of racing , but , reality is would it really be that bad ? Im not one to hack to peices a plane just to try and make it more streamlined , Id spend more time trying to get hp out of it . Just remember the Germans were out to try and make the fastest planes with the best armament . The ME-209 had the record for a long long time . I believe using their designs with todays technology could yield some interesting results
 
If you run methanol as fuel you need just about twice as many gallons as you need gasoline to store the same amount of energy.
Methanol has been tried at least twice before. Once in the late thirties and once in the forties.

the 209 was a beast to fly and high speed in a straight line does not always translate into speed around pylon turns.
 

I think what you mean is you need to run twice as much methanol per combustion compared to normal fuel . Methanol has more energy per volume than regular fuel but needs more to be used per cycle . I cant remember the stats off hand but its something like 20% more power by using methanol over regular fuel AND it burns cooler . Drawback is it eats rubber fuel lines etc so it can be left stored in the fuel tank etc .

Its all experimental at the moment . Im not gonna go out and build an axis plane that will suddenly be better than everything out there . I just need a really good platform to start with !
 
No, the BTU's per gallon of Methanol are around 1/2 the BTU's per gallon of gasoline.

You can burn slightly more than twice the Methanol per pound of air than gasoline which helps the power output a bit in addition to the lower flame temperature and a few other side benefits but you do have to carry almost twice as many gallons to make the same amount of power for the same period of time. Wither the benefits of the alcohol out weigh the the weight/volume problem is one of the questions.

Some of the 1920's-30's speed records were set with alcohol based or alcohol supplemented fuels (including the 209's record) but carrying the amount of fuel needed for a record dash of a few kilometers is rather different than the amount of fuel needed for longer race.

Please remember what happened to the 209 when they tried to turn it into a fighter. The wing was enlarged at least twice, the tail surfaces were enlarged, and when they got a cooling system fitted to work on a standard service engine instead of the race engine the extra drag slowed the plane down to the point where it was little faster (if as fast) than a standard 109.

I have read that some of the liquid cooled racers mount water/alcohol tanks and spray bars to spray their radiators with liquid so that the evaparative cooling assist keeps the engine at allowable temperatures for the duration of the race (or until the tank runs dry).

The problem doesn't seem to be getting the engine to make power but in getting the engine to survive the power it is making for the length of time it takes to complete the race.
 
Bug_racer said:
As for using original parts , well , Id love to run an original DB-601/603 block .
Click to expand...
Why? There are still plenty of Merlin and Allison engines out there you could do a lot with - I hope you're very rich!
Great to dream. You better consider this...

You're probably going to need 2 or even 3 engines. You'll probably blow up one engine on the initial installation during the tuning and flight test process, a common event. In what ever airframe you decide to use, you're going to have to design a "QEC" set up so the engine could be easily removed during race week should you have any type of engine problem.

Where are you going to build and certify this aircraft? Have you looked into your country's requirements for issuing an airworthiness certificate? Are you going to do everything here? Keep in mind that your racer needs to be completely certificated prior to race day and you cannot to any major alterations to the aircraft during race week with out FAA approval.

Finally have you considered how much all this is going to cost outside the building of the aircraft? You'll have to ship the aircraft from Australia, assemble it and pay for you and your crew to stay in Reno for the week, if not longer. Also consider your fuel bill. Part of my airplane's fuel bill was charged to my credit card by mistake - over $5000.00.

Not trying to rain on your parade, but there's a lost more involved in this project. It's a good thing that you'll be in Reno this year so you could see what goes on. Personally I think you're looking at anywhere from $2 - $4 million to do what you're planning. I'd look more into the sport class if I were you. Some of the things you desire are a bit more accessible for those aircraft and they are slowly catching up to the unlimited in speed.

Finally, I keep hearing all this talk about engines, but nothing about propellers. Have you even considered what type of propeller you're going to use? If you design you're own you could be looking at $500K by the time you start cutting metal till you hang it on your aircraft.

I do wish you luck, but as stated, 4000 hp isn't going to mean you're going to have a "winner." The fastest you're going to see on the track is maybe 520 mph if you could accomplish everything you're planning. If you make 530 - 540 on a course by yourself I'd be surprised. After that mother nature will your obstacle.

I do hope you have "A LOT" of money!
 
One thing to consider when comparing the record speeds between the Me209 and the He100...

The Me209 was a race aircraft. The He100 was a combat aircraft. The Me209's record that stood until the 1960's was just 6 mph faster than the He100's record...

The Me209 was built to go straight (dragster) and the He100 was designed to fight and kill, therefore highly maneuverable (road-courser), so going like a "bat outta hell" in the straights and then hooking a left would be right up it's alley.

So now, consider what the He100 could do *if* it were modified to racing specs...
 
Actually I think both airframes would do well at Reno with some modification. keep in mind that 6MPH at Reno is the difference between 1st and 5th place in some classes.
 
FLYBOYJ said:
Actually I think both airframes would do well at Reno with some modification. keep in mind that 6MPH at Reno is the difference between 1st and 5th place in some classes.
Click to expand...
Yes indeed, so now, you take the He100's war dress and modify it to a racing role, you'll shed some much needed weight (assuming we're still comparing both aircraft as they were in the late 30's) which would greatly increase performance.

Once that's considered, then start modernizing for a modern racing application. I bet the He100 would be a very capable racing platform.

*By the way, didn't they race some Bf109 aircraft in the years following the war?
 
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The He 100V8 (the plane that set the record) was modified from normal He 100 specs. Its wings were clipped, if was fitted with a low-drag canopy, and the engine had been tuned for more power. It was however, only 6mph slower than the Me 209 with much less HP.

The only reason I haven't mentioned the He 100 is that none of the airframes have survived and I would expect any technical documents to be scarce as well....
 

They would be - and it would expensive as hell to reproduce a full size replica, however, a 3/4 scale for the Sport Class would be a lot more "do-able."
 
All good info !

I looked into the HE-100 , but as someone has pointed out there is no real surving plans for the aircraft .



We could start the whole Methanol vs Petrol debate but here is how I see it :

Methanol requires twice as much fuel per combustion compared to petrol

It gives slightly more power compared to petrol ( we arent talking high octane here) per combustion

It burns a lot cooler at the same compression ratio . If the Compression ratio is increased to give the same Exhaust gas temperature gains of up to 30% (roughly) could be achieved compared to normal fuel .

Water-meth could be used to lower the temperature even more on higher boost .

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As for running multiple blocks , I would probably buy one good DB-601 and use a CNC machine to redo a new block (there is a Top fueler team around the corner from my shop that builds billet engine blocks etc)

I beleive that the material used in WW2 would be far inferior compared to what is available today . In my beleif they didnt have microscopic metal analysers back then to check grain patterns in the metal (someone can correct me here if Im wrong)

I would run 1 pyro per cylinder as well as well as a dual plug head . I could run the Methanol as lean as possible to get a nice flame front

$2m-$4m , well then I better get crackin 8)
 
The Legends of Air Racing - Bruce Boland

John R Sandberg (JRS) / Tsunami - Racing - Sharon Sandberg - Princeton, MN

Tsunami History (Full Scale)

There are claims that this aircraft was "clocked" at 557 mph. I don't know how accurate that is as I believe those there were using simple stop watches and their eyeballs. This was the direction the unlimiteds should have gone IMO where most of the airframe was built from scratch. There was a lot of potential there - but a lot of money was also needed to feed that potential.
 
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