Which jet was better, the Me 262 or the Gloster Meteor?

Which is better, Me 262 or the Gloster Meteor?

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The links below show the difficulties of copying an engine even when you can take it apart and analyse everything, the actual chemical analysis is only part of the story, there arte also things like rolling conditions subsequent heat treatment and surface treatments like pickling/passivation.

Klimov RD-500 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Klimov VK-1 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 



The Americans, at least those in the know, acknowledged the excellent work done in Britain in terms of jet engine development. The British were the first to develop a really creep resistant alloy material ( i.e nimonic). The study and knowledge of the mechanism of creep was then in its infancy. It is much more than having just high temperature corrosion resistance and strength. The turbine blades had to have very low end tip clearances to minimize leakage, which then dictated of course that creep be negligible or at least very low:

Extract from ch7 [history.nasa.gov/SP-4306/ch7.htm]

WHY ARE BRITISH ENGINES SUPERIOR?
The focus on the Nene raised the question, why did the British produce superior engines when their facilities were markedly inferior to those of the United States? Not only did the United States have better facilities, but American engines were made of better alloys developed to withstand the higher temperatures of the combustor and turbine. A consensus emerged that the superiority of British engines was the result of meticulous engineering and closer cooperation between members of the propulsion community. For example, John Collins, Chief of the Engine Performance and Materials Division, believed that British superiority could be "attributed to a large extent to refinements in the details of the engine design and construction."
Dryden was more blunt. He observed after a trip to England at the height of the proprietary rights debate that the "lack of money for facilities has forced them to make the best use of their brains." In addition, the British had been able to foster "a much closer collaboration between the engine companies in technical matters." Dryden called the attitude of Rolls Royce executives on the release of information, "in refreshing contrast to those of Pratt and Whitney, for example"...​
I'll submit a bit more later on the subject.

Regards,

Magnon
 

Thanks Magnon, I am not a metallurgist but it is a part of my job, I just looked up nimonic on Wiki which gave an analysis of alloy 90 in percentages. In my job the analysis of steels goes down to 4 or even 6 decimal places on some elements and I bet the actual alloys used in turbines are the same or even more stringent especially for detrimental elements (S,P,N in steel). I also bet if you contact RR or P&W they will smile sweetly and change the subject. That does not even mention heat treatments and surface finishes which are another technology themselves.
 

Thanks Charlie, and well aware of the other processing involved in high strength alloys. I used certify special controlled processors for Lockheed back in the 1980s. That was a situation of actually copying a alloy from scratch and the Soviets did a great job in pulling that off. Germany several years later not only had a shortage of material (nickel) but also lacked the right "recipe" for the material.
 
Colin1 said:
So
a bit like doping in silicon manufacture, there is one ratio and one ratio only that will work in the alloying process for critical components in jets/turbines?
Click to expand...

Colin

I found the spec for nimonic alloy 90 here

http://www.specialmetals.com/documents/Nimonic alloy 90.pdf

It takes a lot of research and brains to come up with parameters like those and even more to mass produce things to it. For example as far as heat treatment goes there are various means to measure temperature with thermocouples infra red and surface pyrometers but they all give slightly different results. The research into these effects takes huge effort even on steel, every failure means back to the drawing board propose another solution find out how to make it and try again. Although the progress on turbines seems slow at first sight when you see what the people did in a short space of time it is astonishing.

As far as analysis is concerned in my industry generally we test to 2 decimal places beyond the spec.
For example where Boron is 0.02% max ....0.021 is acceptable the 1 is rounded down but 0.025 is rejectable as the 5 is rounded up and hence 0.245 is also rejectable Alternatively the client may specify 0.020 or even 0.0200 if they dont accept rounding which is obviously more severe.

I dont work to nimonic specs but in my industry we sometimes use monel and incoloy which were developed by the same group.
 
Extract from Leonard Bessemer Pfeil. 1898-1969 ? Biographical Memoirs relating to the development of Nimonic 75 and 80:

"...the situation was changed by news of interest in the Whittle engine. At that time the scientific staff at the laboratory, following the practice that Dr Pfeil had appreciated so much in Professor Edward's laboratory in Swansea, used to meet every morning for coffee and discussion. When the isdea of driving an aircraft with its own exhaust gases was first introduced to the coffee party it was greeted with derision. Nevertheless the theory was looked at, and the idea judged to be practicable if the speed of the aircraft was high enough. The turbine blades of the Whittle engine were then failing with discouraging regularity. The temperature of the turbine blade was between 600 and 650 degrees C, much lower than in alternative gas turbines, but the blade stresses were high, around [27,000 lb/ sq inch]. When tested under these conditions Nimonic 75 failed dismally, but Nimonic 80 was adequate, and, indeed could endure stresses so high as to ensure that the Whittle engine could not only be practicable as designed but would be capable of considerable development.

The problem was now to produce sufficient quantities of Nimonic 80 blading to equip some experimental Whittle engines. This was not easy, since the alloy was awkward in the foundry and the mill, and, until the methods of handling it were mastered, difficult to machine. Nevertheless the difficulties were overcome in time for Nimonic 80 blades to be adopted in the Whittle engine after an experimental E28 jet plane powered with a W2B engine had outpaced conventional fighter aircraft with impressive ease in the presence of Winston Churchill in April 1942. By 1943 it was possible to consider seriously the design of aircraft to fly at 1000 miles per hour. An enormous amount of detailed development work followed. The effects of of every step in the production process on the creep resistance of the alloy were examined and more advanced alloys were systematically developed.

The work required the installation of great numbers of creep testing machines. Engineers visiting Great Britain after the war were impressed by the many batteries of creep testing machines to be seen throughout the country, for by that time it had been established that high temperature materials for gas turbines should be supplied on the basis of the determined rate of deformation under stress at the working tremperature.

Before the end of the war, development ceased to be entirely dominated by the requirements of fighter aircraft. The use of jet-propelled civil aircraft with long service lives was foreseen, and the testing periods were appropriately extended. The possibilities of gas turbines in ship propulsion and electricity generation were also considered. The long task of measuring the tolerable stresses for new alloys up to 100,000 hours, and for service temperatures between 600 and 1000 degrees C was undertaken..."​
 

It must have been a huge undertaking, imagine waiting a few thousand hours for a test result and finding things were no better. When I worked on an investigation it took three weeks to do all the tests and then a further week to make sense of the results, even the top metallurgists were undecided whether a variance in results was caused by the original steel, the effects of the process or the natural variance on the test. Without computers, databases and spreadsheets it must have been a real challenge.
 
I think it's ironic that the leader of the team which developed Nimonic had a German surname Pfeil (or Arrow). An arrow is an icon of war, especially for the English, who revere the tradition of the longbow.
 

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In my opinion an important part of any duel would be to start on the same airstrip and have both pilots race for their planes in a "scramble":

Me 262 Scrambling

"...Always accelerate the engines slowly. The gas temperature must never rise above the permitted value and the engine must not "roar" (bullern)... In view of this, only take corners by using the brakes, never by using the engines. Always taxi gently and never make sharp turns, otherwise control of the aircraft will be lost..."

"...After releasing the brakes, push the throttle lever right forward and check over the engine... the check is done by eye and ear, the engines must not "roar" and the instruments must show the same values as they did during running up or during previous take-offs. The gas pressure must be especially watched, and if it is more than 5% lower than previously, do not take off. in such a case, it is most likely that cavitation has taken place within one of the compressor stages...
Pilot Notes on Me262 by Flug Kapitan Wendell

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...2d38f&start=15​
"...Another Me-262 story from Hans Busch, original Me-262 pilot:

As with most all WWII tricycle landing gear aircraft, the nose wheel on the Me-262 was not at all steerable, but rather was just castoring...

If the nose wheel on the Me-262 got cocked too much during ground maneuvering, the nose wheel had to be straightened out first or damage could occur from further taxiing.

This apparently occurred frequently in the Me-262. Hans related that he occasionally encountered this problem and had to climb out of the cockpit, engines running, and manually pull and pry the nose wheel back into alignment himself before proceeding!.."​
Meteor Scrambling:

From http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.o...Meteor-CFE.pdf

56. The starting up is extremely easy and can be completed in approximately 56 secs. This, coupled with the fact that no warming up is necessary is of considerable advantage for a rapid "scramble", and a formation of Meteors could get off the ground nearly as quickly as a formation of any conventional single engine fighters, and more rapidly than a formation of twin-engined fighters.

57. A number of test scrambles have been carried out, with the pilot strapped in the cockpit, helmet on, R/T plugged in, starter control plugged in, and one airman standing by, brakes on, and no chocks. The time was taken from the moment the high pressure c_o_c_k was turned on, till the aircraft became airborne, and included starting up both motors, taxiing 75 yards, turning on to the runway, and taking off.

58. Two types of scrambles were used. First, the jet engine procedure of turning on to the runway and opening up the throttles fully on the brakes to check the max rpm and jet pipe temperatures. This type of scramble takes 2 min 40 sec. Secondly, the conventional take-off was done, which can be used for an emergency where no checks of rpm or jet pipe temperatures were done on the runway, and this takes 2 min 5 sec.​

After take-off, the Meteor would have time to come around to attack the Me 262 on lift-off. That's if an engine surge hadn't occurred, or the pilot wasn't still straightening out his nose wheel. Would the rules allow the Meteor to strafe the Me 262 on the gound?

The diagrams attached give an indication that the Me 262 nosewheel was relatively weakly castoring.
 

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This is not a good comparison - what was described for the 262 start up was similar if not the same for many early turbine engine aircraft. The cocking of the 262s nose wheel would happen if someone tried to turn the aircraft too tightly and this could have been prevented by training.

What was described on the scrambling procedure for the Meteor was similar to what was done in Korea.
 
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Magnon said:
I think it's ironic that the leader of the team which developed Nimonic had a German surname Pfeil (or Arrow). An arrow is an icon of war, especially for the English, who revere the tradition of the longbow.
Click to expand...


From an obituary his Grandfather was German, also ironic and a bit strange is his middle name "Bessemer" after the inventor of the Bessemer steel making process, as if he was fated to become a metallurgist.
 
In terms of endurance at maximum power the Jumo 004 had a maximum shaft rpm of 8700 for five minutes duration for takeoff and a maximum ten minutes at "military" [read emergency], with a maximum continuous rpm of 8400 (90% power; refer to the Me 262 A-1 Pilot's Handbook).

Note that the Schwalbe only reached its maximum rated speed of 540 mph under the emergency rating; hence they had only ten minutes endurance at that speed. Or if maximum power had been utilised in a climb, correspondingly less would be available for actual combat. Once the military rating had been utilised for the allowed length of time, the engines had to be taken out of service as soon as possible to undergo a full inspection of the hot end components. This was no trivial matter.

From Design Analysis of Messerschmitt Me 262 Jet Fighter:

Maintenance​

...Maintenance crews really take a beating as the result of the final design, for it is a major operation to get at the combustion chambers. First, the variable-area nozzle operating shaft must be removed so that the complete exhaust system assembly can be taken off. Then, unless special equipment is available, the engine must be placed upright on the turbine disk and burner pipes and ignition leads disconnected from the combustion chambers. Then the compressor casing-main casting joint can be broken and the whole front end lifted off. Next the rear compressor bearing assembly, torque tube, and locking ring can be removed and the main casting assembly removed – when the nut on the front end of the turbine shaft is unscrewed. The rear diaphragm plates can then be removed and the turbine inlet ducting and combustion chamber assembly lifted off. Then the front diaphragm plate is removed and the turbine inlet ducting, with the combustion chamber assembly, lifted out of the casing. At this point, as one sweating engineer who did the job declared, "Now, Bub, y'can take out the individual combustion chambers"...​


The operation limitations for the Derwent I of the Meteor F3 were given in the CFE Report No 68 as:
Take-off---------- 16,400/16,600----time limit----------5 min
Climbing-----------16,000-------------------------------------30 minutes
Combat------------16,400------------------------------------ 5 min
Cruise---------------15,400---------------------------(1650 lb thrust)

Hence the operational limitation on the Derwent at 16,000 rpm or above was a total of 40 minutes, the corresponding maximum power figure for the Jumo was 15 minutes. Of course these limits could be, and were, exceeded by the pilot at his own risk. Because of the extreme fragility of the hot end components, that risk would be far higher for the Jumo.

Regards,

Magnon
 
With the higher sustainable climb rate, higher velocity and more reliable cannon, better engine reliability, better acceleration, better manoeuvrability and more robust construction (both airframe and engine) the Meteor would arguably have a very significant edge over the Schwalbe. The Schwalbe would have had an advantage in top speed and perhaps in roll rate, but that was not crucial in the Meteor's competition with the Banshee.

Hans Fey advised how the Allied fighters should counter the Me 262:

(1) AIM AT THE JET PROPULSION UNITS,
as they catch fire even more easily than the conventional engine.

(2) OVERCOME THE ADVANTAGE IN SPEED BY AN ADVANTAGE IN ALTITUDE.
By flying the fighter cover in a stacked-up formation with as much as 3,000 feet between flights, the high flight could reach a speed in dive similar to that of the Me 262, and exploit this in attacking. Furthermore, the Me 262 is relatively slow in turns and movements. It cannot, for instance, Split-S in less than 9000 - 12000 feet.

The ideal situation would be a combination of two factors: first, speed gained through superior altitude, thereby making straight escape risky to the jet aircraft, and second, exploiting its lesser maneuverability when it goes through an evasive maneuver.​

He didn't mention the fuel tank problem, probably because he was thinking of the Mustang with its 0.5" machine guns, which would do much more damage to the engines.

As mentioned, the nominal climb rate of the two jets were about the same, but the sustained climb rate was very different. If the Schwalbe could be lured into a climbing duel, it would drastically increase the likelihood of an engine failure. If it allowed the Meteor to gain a height advantage, it would again be looking for trouble.

Regards,

Magnon
 

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magnon,

please, stop, it becomes ridiculous. next post will be what? the switch for the electricals was badly placed on the 262? (to an english pilot opinion off course, those who didn't liked the lean position in german planes).
You always come back with the meteor turn, but there is someting you don't seem to understand: to initiate a turn, you apply stick on the ailerons! if the ailerons are HARD and low responsive at medium and high speed, how will you start the turn?

simply admit the meteor was a bad plane without maneuvrability, with a bad cockpit layout (in1946!) and tiring to fly( in combat, where each maneuvre starts with AILERONS), yes it had a "reliable" engine but that's all.

and forgot: those plane(262)s werent' build to last, they were tools. the airframe of a 109 in 45 has something like a 10h life from factory fresh to the end of life moment, sowhat if the 004 engines were able to be used 20h max? who cares?
 

Which is exactly the same as any other aircraft of the war, including the Meteor; each had time limitation set out for all out powers, though unlike you say it was not set in stone, nor there was a count-down mechanism preventing the pilot using it for more than 5 or 10 minutes. These were generic time limitations, ie. "Combat" rating for every British aircraft was set as 5 minutes, and for late war German aircraft, max. output was usually defined as the rating permissable for 10 minutes.

For example, the limitations laid out for the Meteor III were 5 mins at 16,400 rpm for take off or combat, with engine exhaust temperature not exceeding 680 Celisus, and 30 mins/650 Celsius for 16,000 rpm for climb. "Cruising" rating at 15,400 rpm could be maintained indefinietaly.

On the Me 262, engine limitations were, on 8700 rpm +/- 200 rpm 5 minutes for take off and 10 minutes for Combat rating at the same output, 8700 rpm. Max. continous rating (90% thrust) could be maintained indefinietely at 8400 rpm.

Hence the operational limitation on the Derwent at 16,000 rpm or above was a total of 40 minutes, the corresponding maximum power figure for the Jumo was 15 minutes.
Click to expand...

That's simply utter nonsense...
 
The Jumo engines had mild steel flame tubes running red hot. Around 700C if they were lucky. In a panic, it would be a lot more. Surge would lead to catastrophic failure of all the hot end components.

Quote: "A big error in the handling of the Me 262 is to increase the throttle too rapidly. Messerschmitt is therefore trying to develop a regulator which will automatically guarantee a smooth injection of fuel."
Me262PilotDebriefing

Quote: "The Jumo 004B-4 reliabillity issue was in part caused by a lack of acceleration control in the primitive centrifugal governor based fuel delivery control system; this allowed the pilot to damage the turbine blades via too fast a throttle movement which would then need to be replaced. The alloy was prone to this and its crystalline structure would be changed so that in the event of mishandling the engine needed to be pulled and the turbine replaced. The acceleration limiter was scheduled for delivery in mid April. (the less mature BMW 003 however got its). Another weakness was problems with the controls of the variable area nozzle which determined backpressure, airflow and temperature through the whole engine as well as the lack of work in developing electronics for the thermocouples to bypass fuel despite provision to do so."
Re: First USAAF P-51 with a Merlin

Quote: "Production model 004s produced 1,980 lbs. of thrust, and weighed in at about 1,800 lbs. Because of this, the engines were not extraordinarily effective at low airspeeds or altitudes or at reduced power settings.
Long takeoff rolls (>3,000') were evidence of this phenomenon and, once aloft, power management became critical. Abrupt throttle changes or rapid maneuvering often resulted in a flameout, or worse, a complete compressor failure.
...The [use] of inferior metals compounded an already problematic situation with the turbine blade design. These blades were rigidly mounted, contributing to severe root stress relief problems. The weaker metals simply could not withstand this kind of abuse and regular compressor failures were an inevitable consequence..."
Me 262 PROJECT TECHNICAL DATA​

Regards,

Magnon
 


The simple question is if the Meteor was inferior to the 262 why didnt the Brits (and Americans) just copy the 262 and put it into service?

As I understand it everyone knew the 262 was good but the best of a bad job and subsequently both sides (allies and Soviets) borrowed heavilily on German high speed research which resulted in the Mig 21 and the EE lightening looking embarrasingly close to each other.
 
To confirm Hans Fey's advice regarding the countering of the Me 262's speed advantage:

The Messerschmitt ME 262

Tactics against the Me 262 developed quickly to find ways of defeating it despite its great speed advantage. Allied bomber escort fighters would fly high above the bombers — diving from this height gave them extra speed thus reducing the speed advantage of the Me 262. The Me 262 was less maneuverable than the P-51 and trained Allied pilots could catch up to a turning Me 262 though the only reliable way of dealing with the jets, as with the even faster Komet rocket fighters, was to attack them on the ground and during take off and landing. Luftwaffe airfields that were recognized as jet bases were frequently bombed by medium bombers, and Allied fighters patrolled over the fields to attack jets trying to land on their bases. The Luftwaffe countered by installing flak alleys along the approach lines in order to protect the Me 262s from the ground and providing top cover with conventional fighters during takeoff and landing. Nevertheless in March and April 1945 Allied fighter patrol patterns over Me 262 airfields resulted in numerous losses of the jets and serious attrition of the force.

Another experimental tactic was installing nitrous oxide injection, much like the Germans' own GM-1 system, into Mustangs. When chasing an Me 262, the pilot could press a button injecting the nitrous oxide into the engine, producing a quick burst of speed.

Other Allied fighters that encountered the Me 262 included the British Supermarine Spitfire, Hawker Tempest and the Soviet Lavochkin La-7. The first recorded Allied destruction of a Me 262, belonging to the unit known as Kommando Schenk, was on 28 August 1944, claimed as destroyed by 78th FG pilots Major Joseph Myers and 2nd Lt. Manford O. Croy flying P-47s. Oberfeldwebel Hieronymus "Ronny" Lauer of I KG(J) 51, on a landing pattern crash landed his 262 to get away from the Allied fighters, which then destroyed the Me 262 in strafing attacks.[14] [15] The first Me 262 shot down in combat, belonging to 3. Staffel/Kampfgeschwader 51, with unit code letters "9K+BL", was on 5 October 1944 by Spitfire IXs of 401 RCAF. The 262 pilot was H.C. Butmann in WNr 170093 of 3./KG51. The Lavochkin was the only Soviet fighter to shoot down a German jet, with La-7 ace Ivan Nikitovich Kozhedub, downing an Me 262 on 15 February 1945 over eastern Germany. Kozhedub apparently later said that his success was mainly due to the Me 262 pilot attempting to out-turn his more maneuverable plane.​

Similarly:
Messerschmitt Me 262

Although faster than Allied propeller aircraft, the Me 262 lacked maneuverability, its engines were relatively unreliable, its cannons tended to jam during high-g turns, and its gear collapsed on hard landings.​

Regards,

Magnon
 
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Magnon said:
To confirm Hans Fey's advice regarding the countering of the Me 262's speed advantage:

The Messerschmitt ME 262

Tactics against the Me 262 developed quickly
Regards,

Magnon​
Click to expand...


I am not an expert in these things but I think the major tactic was just being there as an escort, this meant the 262s must keep their speed near the maximum which restricted them to high speed staffing passes, if they slowed down to make an easy kill they were sitting ducks themselves.​
 

That is another question - after the war, German engineers went off to the Soviet Union and the US. The result was the MiG 15 and the North American Sabre. If British engines had been coupled with the German swept-wing concept in 1941, no nation could have competed. There is some credible evidence that Britain went within an ace of joining with Germany after Dunkirk. Lord Halifax was claimed to be an influential leader who wanted that. Hence the fact that Rudolph Hess, the deputy Chancellor of Germany was confident enough to go over to carry out negotiations. The truth has been suppressed until 2016. It will be fascinating to see then what actually happened at the time.

See Rudolf Hess - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's a bit like the allegory of the The Lord of the Rings , where the possessor of the Ring can have stupendous power, just as long as he is prepared to sell his soul...
 
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