Why did Germany build Panzer I and Panzer II light tanks? (1 Viewer)

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Tomo, thanks, i did indeed oversimplify my timeline. the Tiger I was a typical German response, i.e. if they're punching holes in 25mm increase to 50mm, if 50mm doesn't work increase to 100mm but modify nothing else so the slab-sided I resist by sheer brute force growing heavier and heavier. Come the Russians and the lightbulb goes on: let's slant the armour. the Panthers certainly had their teething problems but how much more quickly could those have been solved except for the drain caused by the Supertank approach.
Dave, what is a tank? were the jagd panzers, sturmgeschutz, Marders tanks? The Pkz I was at least a dedicated tracked vehicle, an engineering stepping stone to the next development as the Wright flyer was to the WWI planes was to the WWII planes
 
Don't forget the different army branches, the Panzer I/II were, without questions, tanks and belonged to the Panzertrupper, supervised by General der Panzertruppen. The 250/251 always belonged to the infantry. Also the tanks wer designed with large flat armor plates for easier applying additional armor, the 250/251 was merely a truck covered with some stronger metal plates for minor armor protections. These surfaces were not really flat thus increasing armor was not easily done.
Do you know the StuG III/IV? They belonged to the artillery branch but once they were equipped with the long gun the Panzertruppen sought to get them under their control but this failed/was denied. The Jagdpanzer IV was originally designed/named "Sturmgeschütz neue Art" and would have gotten under artillery control as well but this was worked-around via redefining them as Jagdpanzer thus it came under control of the Panzertruppen.
 
Tomo, thanks, i did indeed oversimplify my timeline. the Tiger I was a typical German response, i.e. if they're punching holes in 25mm increase to 50mm, if 50mm doesn't work increase to 100mm but modify nothing else so the slab-sided I resist by sheer brute force growing heavier and heavier. Come the Russians and the lightbulb goes on: let's slant the armour. the Panthers certainly had their teething problems but how much more quickly could those have been solved except for the drain caused by the Supertank approach.
Dave, what is a tank? were the jagd panzers, sturmgeschutz, Marders tanks? The Pkz I was at least a dedicated tracked vehicle, an engineering stepping stone to the next development as the Wright flyer was to the WWI planes was to the WWII planes

Well put about Pz-I (and it's close relative, Pz-II) being a stepping stone in German tank development. No Pz-I - no Pz-III/IV etc?
As for Panther's issues being ironed out, the Soviets have their issues with anything heavier than 20 tons, too, and it took them years to sort those out.
 
Why can't the Spw251 chassis be the light tank stepping stone? It can easily accomodate a 7.92mm MG or 2cm autocannon in a revolving turret.
 
Time lines are not compatible. Discussions development of the heavy Zg traktors began in 1932, while development of the lighter 1 ton and 3 ton traktors followed a couple of years later. Which means any SPW could not begin development until after [1935-37] which production after that time. Pz I was developed from the Krupp experimental LSK chassis, which was developed in 1928-30 and was further developed into the LAS prototype from 1932-33, which became the Pz-I that entered production in 1934. That's production in 1934 vs 1938.

Guderian's Panzer concepts were still new at this time and would not pick up steam for a few years, so there was no need for a SPW prior to that time line. On the other hand there was a need for 'mechanized gun' concepts that were articulated and experimented through the mid to late 1920s. Infact proof of concept models were quickly adopted during the first rearmament drive from 1928-1932 in the form of hundreds of WD Schlepper [77mm gun 37mm gun]. The Army followed this up with a proposal to adapt the LSK prototype into a "Schlepper" for the 77mm gun, which was tested through 1932, just in time for the second rearmament drive [1932-38].

What's important to understand here is that the Ministry of Defense authorized the expansion of the Reichmarine to 150,000 personnel in 1928 and added 11 reserve infantry divisions under the 1st rearmament drive[1928-1932]. Under the second rearmament drive, these 21 divisions would become the active divisions with a reserve field army of 63 divisions plus the creation of a number of panzer Kompanies [12-18?]. When Hitler took over in 1933 the Wehrmacht demands ballooned ,so that only a couple of years later, they were demanding 36 active divisions plus a field army of 83 divisions. Against this back drop, the need for AFV increased geometrically. Even as late as Guderian's "Achtung Panzer", he is accepting that his 'Panzer battle groups' may have to make do with motorcycle recon/motorized infantry Guns etc in the short term.

The first proposed TOE for panzer divisions in 1934/35, included tanks and SP howitzers plus armored cars as the only AFVs.

Sources
Spielberger. "Sturmgeschutz its Variants"
Spielberger. "Halftracked Vehicles of the German Army 1909-1945"
Jentz "Panzer Truppen"
Chamberlain Doyle. "Encyclopedia of German Tanks of World War Two"
 
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I think the point Dave was getting at is how much more could have been achieved had Germany channeled Pz I and II production into expanded SPW production and built that into a light tank instead.

Most historians seem to gloss over the fact that, Hitler convinced his Generals [and Admirals] that German would not have to fight a major European war until they would be ready in the mid 1940s, so they still had plenty of time. Basic German risk theory always recognized that Germanys neighbors would not sit idly by and just let her rearm. So any rearmament programme had to be as secret as possible and built around an expectation of imminent war along the lines of WW-I.

But Hitler ignored all this and gambled Germanys future away based on his misguided racial view that the war going to be a 'do or die' struggle between German/Europe and a Jewish led America/allied threat. He believed he could crush Russia and bully the UK into joining a grand alliance against America. After Munich he believed nothing could be gained by waiting and the major European powers were too weak to prevail against Germanys racial superiority.

Yeah good point, but the demag was already used for this as opposed to the hanomag, right alongside the scout tanks as a radio vehicle or SPG. They wanted tanks, ideally the Pz38 czech jobs with the good suspension and 37mm sköda gun (best prewar light/field antitank gun, some German antitank squads still used heavy rifles in 42).

To some degree the industrial logistics must tailor supply for their military's specifications on the basis of request. They won't always agree, but the military works better that way.

As we all know the PzI only entered line service due to production shortages, the way I heard it in the low countries half the scout tanks were PzI whilst Pz35 mosty were used to supplement PzIII. There was a shortfall in both PzIII and IV large tanks but it was muted by the tactics used, the full commitment of German forces at finite locations and a bit of luck.

Demag production could've been geared up but Hanomag production was already maxing out because it couldn't fill the orders it had. Everybody wanted them as an APC, a military tractor and an armoured utilitary vehicle, not to mention the subvariants. The old 6 and 8 wheeler armoured cars needed replacement, artillery needed the other half tracks for tractors, Germany had a superpower military with small nation industry, half the entire infantry force according to logistical records and personal photos in 1941 were still equipped no differently to the Kaiser's troops thirty years earlier, complete with wood wheeled carriages pulled by horses and oversize rifles you go hunting bears with, not urban warfare. That was the amazing technicolour dreamcoat that was the true German war machine.

The mistaken belief the Wehrmacht was on the whole technology superior to anyone is ridiculous, all history has ever talked about on that score is local superiority gained by concentrating your best forces and any reinforcements you can muster, most of it related to industry.
Germany couldn't equip all its formations with current basic materiél, how could it possibly choose logistical supply besides "just send us whatever you've got"?
 
It should also be mentioned that during 1942 Germany completely reorganised its Panzer warfare doctrine, and the Soviets reorganised their entire air force structure and doctrine.

By this time the PzII was reinforced to at least 50mm front armour and alongside Pz38 made pretty good scout tanks, the PzII is so much like a tankette even with skinny tracks it has very good mobility, like a T-70. The Pz38 is much better equipped to fight T-70 though, but scout tanks usually fight armoured cars or infantry.

The Panther armoured car was on the way, that was a huge bonus because it was more mobile in the Russian mud season than a PzIII and armed better than armoured cars. There were more demags and hanomags, there were those little halftrack bikes (often used as aircraft tractors), Pz35/38 got handed over to scout tank formations, production of Pz38 continued in German hands, PzIV now supplemented PzIII which were upgunned and given wider tracks.

But this was all prelimenary to receiving Tigers to replace the PzIV, which was under development. But around Oct41 another spanner got thrown in the works because they met the T-34. The Panther tank was drawn up to replace the PzIII which proved inadequate in tank vs tank against T-34 or KV-1. And only a high velocity 75mm at close range takes down a KV-1.

In other words the whole Panzergruppen update program got shoved back another couple of years before becoming a superior tank force. And the war got in the way.
 
Hanomag production was already maxing out because it couldn't fill the orders it had. Everybody wanted them as an APC, a military tractor and an armoured utilitary vehicle, not to mention the subvariants.
That says a lot about how good the hanomag design was. Germany produced something like 25,000 Hanomag vehicles (including all variants) and probably could have used four times that many.
 
That and the fact in remained in production through the sixties, and front line service through to the 80s in some Euro countries. It was an epic design, that and the Hetzer.
 

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