swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 4,031
- Jun 25, 2013
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Allison was totally dependent on USN and USAAF business; Curtiss-Wright and Pratt & Whitney had large commercial customer bases. One effect of this was that both companies had larger engineering staffs and likely better field service operations and broader access to vendors.
It is possible that Allison could have developed those, but their corporate master at GM did not seem interested in spending the money to do so.
Single stage Merlins had automatic boost control. They tended to have less power than a V-1710 at low altitudes, but more at high altitudes.
The 2 speed Merlin XX had more power down low than the similar single speed 45, and had more power up high. And the Merlin XX had automatic boost control too.
The main purpose of low gear in a two speed engine is to keep the pilot from overboosting the engine at takeoff.
Allison accomplished this in their single speed engine by throttling the engine at TO and gradually opening the throttle as altitude was gained and air became thinner.
By mid '42 the automatic boost control (automatic manifold pressure regulator) automatically prevented the engine from exceeding a set manifold pressure at any altitude. So the pilot could select full throttle and not overboost the engine at any altitude.
This single speed arrangement provided plenty of power at lower altitudes (peak WEP was under 9500') and adequate power at higher altitudes since the single speed was in effect high gear. It was also lighter and simpler than a two speed arrangement.
The auto boost and variable speeds of the turbo and mechanical auxiliary stage rendered a two speed Allison unnecessary.
Allison didn't sold a singe engine to the USN, IIRC, so dependance on that service didn't existed.
It is possible that Allison could have developed those, but their corporate master at GM did not seem interested in spending the money to do so.
If I'm wrong then the AAF would have directed Allison to produce a two speed engine. They didn't. Allison estimated a low gear power increase of around 100hp which wasn't viewed as being worth the effort.You have brought this up before, it was wrong then, it is wrong now and it will be wrong regardless of the number of times you bring it it up.
Please see post #3 in this thread for an explanation of 2 speed superchargers.
Please note the Merlin III was using an automatic boost limiter well before the Allison ever made it into mass production as were a number of other European engines (like the DB 601).
WEP was APPROVED in the Fall of 1942, a bit late to be sure, but way to late too have any effect on planning of engines/superchargers and accessories.
The Germans had built engines in WW I that required a restricted throttle opening at low altitudes. No supercharger but high compression ratio in the cylinders.
Throttle had to be restricted for the same reason, to keep engine from destroying itself at low altitude. as the plane climbed into thinner air the throttle could be fully opened and the engine mad more power than an equivalent engine with a lower compression ratio. I am not trying to take anything away from the people at Allison but I have never seen any claim that they invented automatic boost control or even promoted for the use you are claiming.
I would note that on some engines (like Wright R-1820s) the two speed drive weighed a whopping 30lbs. To me 30lbs for an extra 100hp (or more) for take-off is a pretty good trade.
AS has been pointed out, the Merlin was using an automatic boost limiter in 1939 if not before and yet they built two speed engines with automatic boost limiters
Difference between a Merlin III and a Merlin XX using the same supercharger design except for the superdrive and gears was close to 200hp when using 87 octane fuel.
If I'm wrong then the AAF would have directed Allison to produce a two speed engine. They didn't. Allison estimated a low gear power increase of around 100hp which wasn't viewed as being worth the effort.
yes, thank you, I will edit the post.Do you mean Merlin X?
The AAF were still very keen on the turbo to provide the altitude performance for the V-1710.
IIRC, Curtiss had to request an altitude rated engine (ie one that wasn't using a turbo). But the altitude rated engines didn't have every high critical altitudes. In that sense the 2 speed drive may not have made much difference.
Gaining altitude performance in a 1 speed supercharged engine led to a loss of low altitude performance. So if Allison could have produced a better, higher altitude supercharger, the 2 speed drive would have been beneficial.
Documentation was from Vees for Victory/Whitney. Only about 100HP increase at SL/Low Alt. Not worth the time and trouble.Do you have any documentation?
AS has been pointed out, the Merlin was using an automatic boost limiter in 1939 if not before and yet they built two speed engines with automatic boost limiters
Bristol was using autotatic boost limiters in 1939.
The First Zero's used a single speed engine with an automatic boost limiter and yet went to a two speed engine, still with an automatic boost limiter.
The list goes on and on. The US was simply late to the game with automatic boost limiters, it wasn't a break through in technology.
Allison and the USAAF got lucky. They started with 100 octane fuel and didn't have to put up with the limits that 87 or 91 octane fuel imposes. The luck continued when the development of 100/130 fuel meant that they could use 30% higher pressure in the cylinders for WEP (or slightly higher military power than before) without having to resort to a more sophisticated supercharger design.
Difference between a Merlin III and a Merlin X using the same supercharger design except for the superdrive and gears was close to 200hp when using 87 octane fuel.
The P & W R-1830 picked up 150hp for take-off using low gear over what it could make if using the the high gear only.
To give an idea of what was going consider the comparison of the V-1710-33 (long nose in P-40) and the V-1710-27/29 used in the YP-38s and some of the other early P-38s. The -33 used 8.77 supercharger gears and the -27/29 used 6.44 gears.
......................V-1710-33...............V-1710-27/29
BHP.................1040..........................1150
RPM................3000..........................3000
Map@70*..........41.9..........................39.7
Mixture temp.... 196...........................112
Friction HP*.......290..........................240
Indicated HP......1330........................1390
The Map is at 70 degrees F inlet temperature going into the carb.
The mixture temperature is the temp in fahrenheit in the manifold after the supercharger.
Friction hp includes the power needed to drive the supercharger.
Indicated HP is the power produced in the cylinders.
Please note the increase power needed to drive the supercharger with the 8.77 gears. Please also note the decreased mixture temperature.
Of course a plane using 6.44 gears and no turbo would have had truly atrocious altitude performance.
I would note that later pilot's manuals for the P-38's with -49/53 engines show 1240hp for take off using 44.5in of MAP. compared to the 1150hp at about the same pressure in the -39 engine. The -49/53 engines used 7.48 gears. Bumping the pressure up to 47in gave 1325hp which the -39 engine (and other 8.80 supercharger ger engines ) needed 51in to match.
Again the lower gear ratio engine cannot maintain it's better power as high as the 8.80 gear engine.
Please note the the later Allisons used stronger construction and were able to withstand the higher boost pressures of WEP ratings much better.
The Automatic boost control did not make 2 speed superchargers obsolete. Allison got "lucky" in that better fuel allowed higher boost pressures at low altitudes and stronger construction (better materials/techniques) allowed the engine to survive the increased power.
Remember, each and every use of WEP required notation in log books, extra maintenance (even if just checking for metal in the oil and more frequent spark plug changes) and if used enough, pulling the engine before normal life expectancy for overhaul.
Automatic boost control DID NOT,
Lower intake mixture temperatures.
Require less power to drive the supercharger.
Reduce cooling load.
Allisons were never used in a production bomber or transport where long hard take-offs and climb outs would be the normal operating procedure.
Weirdly enough, despite the "wonders" of the automatic boost control, at the end of the war Allison built 8 two speed, single stage engines to power a planned version of the C-54 transport. They used a new 10.25in impeller supercharger and were rated at 1600hp/3200rpm/SL/61.7in in low gear for take-off and military power of 1220hp/3000rpm/15,500ft. Low gear was 7.48:1 and high gear 9.60:1.
Documentation was from Vees for Victory/Whitney. Only about 100HP increase at SL/Low Alt. Not worth the time and trouble.
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Unfortunately the game changed from late 1939 and into 1940. Planes got heavier as more "stuff" was added.
Hooker changed the game with the Merlin. The Germans revamped the 109 and cut drag a lot while gaining very little weight.
In 1939 and for most of 1940 Nobody had an engine with a higher critical altitude than around 14,000ft (correction welcome) aside from the Merlin.
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was based on the assumption that a single stage, 2-speed Supercharger might have been quickly developed for the P-40 that would have incrementally improved its high altitude performance in the time-frame of 1941-42. Instead, the USAAF fielded the P-40K in the Summer/Fall of 1942, which did nothing to improve the aircraft's high altitude performance but did provide additional performance for the overweight aircraft to get off the ground.
SR6 has provided the rationale for why it wasn't pursued: little benefit to be achieved, and of course the fact that at about the same time, the single staged, two-speed variant of the Packard-Merlin engined P-40(F) was coming on line which was perhaps a far simpler solution to the problem than a dedicated Allison development.
That's pretty funny that a P-40 is overweight but the P-38 and P-47 aren't?
It seems like one answer to the 'supercharger dilemma' would have been to produce some V-1650-1 / P-40Fs while also diverting at least some of the V-1650-7s to P-40s along with the P-51s. The P-51s were better in many ways but a P-40 with a V-1650-7 probably would have been a pretty dangerous opponent for the Luftwaffe. I guess it was basically a question of prioritizing Strategic bombing over the (stalled out) Tactical campaign in Italy.
The decision to use the single stage Merlin XX as the basis of the P-40's "Merlin 28" instead of something more like the Merlin 60 series is allegedly why Don Berlin quit Curtis aircraft company. I do think it was a major mistake though it's basically a question of quantity vs quality. Merlin 61 were not being produced by Rolls Royce until March 42 and I'm not sure when the V-1650-7 became available from Packard I'm guessing a bit later that year. 1942 was a very tough year for the Allies and the V-1650-1 powered P-40, for all it's limitations, was definitely needed and played a crucial role in the capture of Tunisia, the reduction of Pantellerina, the invasion of Sicily and the invasion of Italy through Anzio.
Interestingly Packard strengthened the V-1650-1 / Merlin 28 used for the P-40F/L by coating the bearings with super hard iridium, and these too were overboosted quite a bit in the field.
The Spit IX was the best air superiority fighter they had by far but there weren't enough of them, and all Spits were a bit too fragile for ground attack.