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The P-51 with V-1710-39 (= an engine not as good as than the Merlin III) and at 8114 lbs was climbing to 15000 ft in 5.58 min, while the Spitfire I with the Rotol prop and sans the 73lb armor plate needed 5.4min.In short a Spitfire I is a far better aircraft for the Battle of Britain than a Mythical Mustang with a Merlin III.
To further this,A 400 mph fighter in 1940, that weights 8100 lbs? Where do I sign?
Worthy of a thread of it's ownTo further this,
Unfortunately we run into the different test procedures. Brtish were using 2600rpm and 6lbs of boost (6.4 =43in?) for the entire climb, which is a reasonable procedure for climb even if it doesn't give the best numbers. Merlin III doesn't get to full throttle until 11,000ft and at power falls off the higher it goes (an extra 10% on the rpm will help keep the boost up for several thousand ft higher)Enough for the Spitfire to win the bar bet, but not enough of a difference to hang a hat to it.
630lbs of fuel is the fuel carried in a P-51A for normal gross weight and at 7.2lbs per gallon that is 87.5Imp gal.We can also opt to fill just 85 imp gals and save (150-85) x 7.2 = 468 lbs from the P-51, in order to improve the RoC.
The V-1710-39 isn't as good as a Merlin III? That's pathetic considering it appears at least 2 years after the Merlin II which is a Merlin III with a different prop shaft. The Merlin XX is already in front line service before the -39 actually flies. The -39 entered combat at the same time as the Merlin 63.The P-51 with V-1710-39 (= an engine not as good as than the Merlin III) and at 8114 lbs was climbing to 15000 ft in 5.58 min, while the Spitfire I with the Rotol prop and sans the 73lb armor plate needed 5.4min.
Enough for the Spitfire to win the bar bet, but not enough of a difference to hang a hat to it.
Once both aircraft are at 15000 ft, the P-51 is faster by a good measure. We can also opt to fill just 85 imp gals and save (150-85) x 7.2 = 468 lbs from the P-51, in order to improve the RoC.
P-51 with full fuel load in service in the Group 12 can join the party above Group 11 territory, that will not go as smooth, if at all with the short-ranged and draggier fighters of the time. In service of the Group 11, it leaves more of a leeway wrt. mis-judging the German intents and flight paths, and allows for the fighters to chase the retreating LW aircraft over the channel.
Having the Merlin III-powered P-51 above Dunkirk would've also been great.
You were doing pretty good up until this part.The -39 entered combat at the same time as the Merlin 63.
The Spit had to climb fast because it was so short ranged. It could not afford to to be at 30,000 ft when the radar vectors came in.In short a Spitfire I is a far better aircraft for the Battle of Britain than a Mythical Mustang with a Merlin III.
Mk III Spitfire fitted with a RM2SM Merlin engine hit 394 MPH on the 15th March 1940 running 100 octane fuel with a fixed pitched propeller. The Mk III had shortened wings to improve roll with strengthened main spar and fuselage, internal bullet proof windscreen, redesigned radiators, 100G main tank, retractable tail wheel, the forward landing gear rake increased by 2'' and the lower section fitted with small flaps to enclose the wheels and finally two cannons that didn't actually work but were the future, total weight 6700 lbs, the Mk III eclipsed everything in the air until the FW 190 appeared 2 years later, your welcome.A 400 mph fighter in 1940, that weights 8100 lbs? Where do I sign?
I've already discussed this ad nauseum, put a 20G tank behind the Spits seat, problem solved. How well are your .50's working in 1940?The Spit had to climb fast because it was so short ranged. It could not afford to to be at 30,000 ft when the radar vectors came in.
Even without drop tanks Merlin Mustangs, with either V-1650-1 or V-1650-3, would have met the Luftwaffe over the coast of FRANCE. And so the interceptors would not have been at the continual disadvantage of having the 109's always above them, but rather the opposite.
Would the Mustang have become the aircraft it did let alone gone into production had the Mk III entered service?. The natural progression would have been Mk III with the two speed Merlin XX to what was the Mk VIII with two speed two stage Merlin 60 late 1941 so no need for the RAF to order obsolete American designs if the British industries get behind it's production. All the RAF need is for Portal to be left out of the decision making and let Joe Smith do his work.Are we somehow back to the "Why didn't the silly British just use non-existent American tech from the future to win the BOB?" question?
My vote would be a fully fleshed out Spitfire Mk.III, with belt fed Hispano's.
It is important but we had a war to win.Understood, but the USAF and USN considered the difference in fuel usage important.
Size:Both using twice the fuel and providing a far larger target for the Germans to see and shoot at.
I didn't say "fuel consumption doesn't matter." I questioned how much of a calculus there was for modern fighters which all contributed. The 4-engine bombers carried far more fuel and and the need for fuel is what it was.
- Lower fuel consumption allows a plane to fly further, which seems to have been an important consideration for escort fighters of the era.
- You still have to get the fuel to the air bases in England. Saying fuel consumption doesn't matter seems disrespectful to the thousands of men who died bringing supplies, including fuel, over the Atlantic. Though by the time the Mustang starts showing up in numbers the Battle of the Atlantic is practically over, but still.
Worthy of a thread of it's own
It is important but we had a war to win.
Total mobilization nationwide.
Are we somehow back to the "Why didn't the silly British just use non-existent American tech from the future to win the BOB?" question?
My vote would be a fully fleshed out Spitfire Mk.III, with belt fed Hispano's.
The Mk III was a total redesign of the Spitfire based on what was learnt from the Mk I/II, it was slated for production but the war started so the Mk II stayed in front line service. The Mk III was an exceptional aircraft, totally outclassing everything in the air in 1940/41 but still being armed with eight Browning .303's because like has already been posted numerous times none of the numerous .50 cal guns or the Hispano were anything near reliable.IF the Hispano had been made reliable by then AND the belt feed system designed and perfected by then I would totally agree with Spitfire though I would go with the Mk V. I know too little about the Mk III to consider it. I thought it was the version with the C wing that was cancelled but I cannot think of any Mk IV Spitfires so maybe that was the cancelled one.
Mk III prototypes started out as the Mk I airframes, that were taken from the production line in order to be modified into the Mk III. Same fuselage behind the firewall, same tail (bar to cater for the retractable tailwheel), same wing.The Mk III was a total redesign of the Spitfire based on what was learnt from the Mk I/II, it was slated for production but the war started so the Mk II stayed in front line service.