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Ki-43's shot down B-17's and B-24's not to mention tough fighters like the P-47 with just two .303's, I bet the RAF pilots would have loved to have replaced their eight British made .303's for two of the Japanese models!!!! Being serious planes from the start of the war to the finish flew home with holes all over them from battle, you only have to look at gun camera footage to see aircraft riddled with fire from all calibers yet break away and escape but only the BoB experience is ever discussed.Which 50 cal? In 1940 it wasnt what it became in 1943/4. They cause different damage. In 1940 RAF pilots were being struck and damaged by single rounds from 20mm cannon while seeing German bombers sail through hundreds of hits by their 0.303 mgs. Post war it was found that although many bombers didnt go down straight away, they ditched or made forced landings with dead or injured crews, by mid September 1940 what was th most formidable airforce in the world was down to its last 200 serviceable bombers and crews.
I was thinking of the USA 50 BMG round, the M2 machine gunWhich 50 cal? In 1940 it wasnt what it became in 1943/4. They cause different damage. In 1940 RAF pilots were being struck and damaged by single rounds from 20mm cannon while seeing German bombers sail through hundreds of hits by their 0.303 mgs. Post war it was found that although many bombers didnt go down straight away, they ditched or made forced landings with dead or injured crews, by mid September 1940 what was th most formidable airforce in the world was down to its last 200 serviceable bombers and crews.
I was thinking of the USA 50 BMG round, the M2 machine gun
Some people already encountered this issue back in ancient times.Punctuation is important for the simple fact that it can be used as clarification of intent. Take this rather innocuous sentence: "Let's eat, children". Take away the punctuation and the intent changes quite a bit...
That really gets into a sort of 3 way split. The M8 API didn't show up until late 1943?Same-same for the rounds. The rounds available in 1938-1940 were far less capable than those emerging in 1942-1943.
This discussion has been had a few times on here, it seems to take place without reference to date and time. The British were committed to increasing firepower for their fighters from the mid 1930s. Spitfires and Hurricanes had the armament increased early on from 4 to 8 rifle calibre MGs. The Westland Whirlwind was commissioned as a cannon armed fighter, started to be introduced in mid 1940. The Beaufighter was a heavy fighter development o the Beaufort and also introduced in mid 1940. Experiments continued with getting cannon that would work in the wings of single engined fighters, these were unsuccessful in 1940 but by 1941 the 20mm cannon was standard armament on the Typhoon Hurricane and Spitfire. The Spitfire was the only fighter required to work at all altitudes, so it only carried 2, because at high altitudes, with a single stage engine the weight/ drag affected performance. All this was before the USA entered the war with many fighters that only had rifle calibre guns. Some issues with the 50Cal on P-51s were not sorted until around 1943, they didnt concern the gun itself but the mounting and feeding. Late Spitfires deleted the 4 x 303mgs for 2 x 50Cal but by that time the 50 cal was a sorted weapon, and the UK and European theatre was awash with 50cal munitionsI was thinking of the USA 50 BMG round, the M2 machine gun
The British were working on the .303 Browning around 1930?This discussion has been had a few times on here, it seems to take place without reference to date and time. The British were committed to increasing firepower for their fighters from the mid 1930s. Spitfires and Hurricanes had the armament increased early on from 4 to 8 rifle calibre MGs.
I think I posted mid 1930s. 1930 itself is not mid 1930s and both the Hurricane and Spitfire had their required armament increased in the design and development stage which was in the mid 1930sThe British were working on the .303 Browning around 1930?
They knew they could not use the Vickers gun in remote locations (where the pilot could not beat on it with gloved fist) and trying to use Lewis guns, even in multiple, was not going to be a long term solution either what with the 97 shot drum.
They had entered into negotiations for the Hispano gun in 1936 and were building the factory in 1938 so any scheme that advances the US .50 cal has to fall well before 1937-38.
View attachment 760309
This and it's classmates had been built to a 1930 specification with four guns desired.
It just took a while for adjustments to be made and factories built
No but the requirement for new guns, instead of the WW I leftovers predated the Hurricane and Spitfire by several years.I think I posted mid 1930s. 1930 itself is not mid 1930s and both the Hurricane and Spitfire had their required armament increased in the design and development stage which was in the mid 1930s
The British were working on the .303 Browning around 1930?
They knew they could not use the Vickers gun in remote locations (where the pilot could not beat on it with gloved fist) and trying to use Lewis guns, even in multiple, was not going to be a long term solution either what with the 97 shot drum.
They had entered into negotiations for the Hispano gun in 1936 and were building the factory in 1938 so any scheme that advances the US .50 cal has to fall well before 1937-38.
View attachment 760309
This and it's classmates had been built to a 1930 specification with four guns desired.
It just took a while for adjustments to be made and factories built
I believe about 1,500 of 7,300 Lancs had twin .5 rear turrets introduced late 1944.A note about why the British stuck with the .303-in Browning in its power turrets and so forth. In 1940, the turret manufacturers, Boulton Paul in particular was investigating a .50 cal armed turret, but was told by Beaverbrook, (Minister of Aircraft Production) that the .303-inch turrets were being standardised on because of expediency. The haste at which the British wanted to get power turrets onto bombers was the key and reverting from production as it stood in 1940 by the turret manufacturers, Nash & Thompson, BP and Bristol would have disrupted production at a time when the RAF was introducing newer bombers such as the Stirling, Manchester and Halifax into service would have delayed them entering service in numbers. All the turret manufacturers investigated bigger calibre guns in their turrets, some of which carried over into later production models of existing aircraft and newer bombers. The Nash & Thompson rear turret of the Lancaster Mk.VII was fitted with twin .50s, while the Bristol mid upper turret on the Avro Lincoln had two 20mm Hisso cannon.
Lancaster Mk.VII armed with Nash & Thompson rear turret armed with twin .50s. The mid upper turret is an N&T turret retrofitted to this aircraft for museum purposes. Mk.VIIs originally had Martin mid upper turrets with twin .50s.
View attachment 760022_ADP5014
Lincoln Bristol mid upper turret armed with two 20mm cannon.
View attachment 760023Bristol B.17
Lincoln Boulton Paul rear turret armed with twin .50s.
View attachment 760024BP Type D
I am going to guess the P-26 was the first to sometimes carry an M2, although the standard armament was 2x M1919's.When did the USA start fitting 50cal weapons to fighters and when did they stop fitting rifle calibre weapons to them?
I believe about 1,500 of 7,300 Lancs had twin .5 rear turrets introduced late 1944.
The turrets were liked for the harder hitting power and useful features which meant that the parachute could be stowed on board and also there was no rear glass to obscure the vision. There were some turrets that could shoot below and behind as well. However, the new turret jammed more often than the well debugged 303.
This was one of the great frustrations of Bomber Harris in that he fought to get the 5 turret and industry didn't seem to respond.
Please note my figures and dates are approximate. If another member has the more exact figures, I'll be happy to defer
Is there any proof the .50 turrets were more effective than the .303 models?.Nash & Thomson only built 696 FN 82 with 0.5" guns from Dec 1944-Nov 1945. 180 of those went into Lancaster Mk.VII built April-Dec 1945.
Rose built 321 turrets (75 in 1944) with 0.5" guns but only about 180 were fitted by the end of the war in Lancasters of, mainly, 1 Group with some going to 5 Group.
Geoffrey Sinclair provided production data here. Post #2
Lancasters with the Rose rear turret
In Bomber Harris — Sir Arthur Harris' Despatch on War Operations 1942–1945 it says this in regards to the Rose twin .50-cal MG rear turret: The Rose turret was introduced into operational use in Bomber Command in July, 1944, and at the end of the German War, 180 of these turrets had been built...ww2aircraft.net
The Halifax Mk.VII & Lincoln received the Boulton & Paul Type D turret with 0.5".
The Spit is going to need a bit more than that to fit a pair of cowl mounted .50'sThe Spitfire would need to have its main fuel tank reduced (the upper portion cut down to make room for the guns
The Spit is going to need a bit more than that to fit a pair of cowl mounted .50's