Why were U.S. pursuit fighters at the start of WW2 of lower performance than European fighters?

[Mike Williams]

I think the tanks were later and they make have been in stages, not all tanks of the three got them at once (at least in existing planes).
BP glass also did not show up at the same time as armor. This is for many air forces.
The Germans were NOT fully equipped with Armor. BP Glass and protected tanks in 1939. In fact a few German aircraft shot down in the BoB in Aug (one Bf 110C recon plane in particular) did not have much in the way of protective equipment when examined. May have isolated but both sides were refitting existing aircraft as time and supplies allowed.

Armor often started as one or two plates behind the pilots seat Which may or may not have had head protection (extended above the shoulders) . Some planes got an armored seat bottom. Some planes got flat plates and some got curves. Some planes got armor or very thick sheet metal at the base of the windscreen.

Some of this was discussed here before: Opinions On This Article I Found About The Zero

 

[buffnut453]

Not sure what you are referring to? The standard procedure from day one of production Mustangs - Start engine with fuel selector to LH main - which had reverse feed to LH Main for overflow return. If engine shut off the fuel would drain back. After warm up and take off and formation assembly, every one would switch to fusetank to reduce the tank (if completely filled to 85 gal) by 30+ gallons to 55/60 for safe CG limits. Then switch to external 'auxiliary' tank of choice (usually RH to offset fuel burned in LH main). After drop tanks released the process was usually to swith to RH Main to once again offset LH Main drained at warm up and take off.

Save extreme long range requirements the SOP for P-51B/C/D/K with 85 gal fuse tank was to fill only 55 to 60 gal. For That condition the fuselage tank was last in the useage profile - with Left Main (takeoff), Right Auxiliary/Left auxiliary until dry, RH main/LH main to maintain roll balance for ease of trim until dry - then switch to fuse tank. I recall my father saying that he often landed with more than 40 gal in fuse tank - even for Berlin/Munich missions in which there was no combat, Also missions in which fuel remained in 110gal auxiliary tanks just because he/they wanted to deny germans steel donations. Impregnated tanks rarely made it past the midway mark.

In peacetime conditions the Fuselage tank was rarely filled. For many training command flights, with or without fuse tank - the P-51 mains would be filled to 50 gallons each ("Fighter Condition").

For earliest models (Mustang I) model the capacity for each main was slightly less (85 vs 92) but the tanks were contiguous. Only for Mustang I was there an internal auxiliary tank (s) - Kits were provided to install pumps and two cells totalling 27 gal. I Do not know if the presence of the internal auxiliary tanks changed SOP. I suspect not, but cannot confirm.

Maximum Range for Ferry and Combat Radius purposes pretty much follow the above procedures except to note that desired plan was to reduce the wing fuel to near zero and save the last of the fuselage tank for reserve.

Maybe I mis-interpreted your comment?

More likely I was misinterpreting how the overload tank was used. Thanks for the additional insights.

 

[drgondog]

Rear tank down to 35G, no maneuvers or even tight turns until then.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/P-51B_Fuselage_Tank_4-43-23-1.pdf

As a practical matter, 8th AF ops dictated draw of 20-25 gal during climb out. The production baffles installed in the 85 gallon tank materially benefited manueverability as the CG remained within dynamic stability limits. Later SOP was to fill the fuse tank to only 60gal save extremely LR missions. When my father led the last escort for Frantic VII Shuttle, the briefing stated 85 gal at takeoff. IIRC the 110gal drop tanks were dropped NW Berlin and everyone switched to fuselage tank.

 

[MikeMeech]

I think the tanks were later and they make have been in stages, not all tanks of the three got them at once (at least in existing planes).
BP glass also did not show up at the same time as armor. This is for many air forces.
The Germans were NOT fully equipped with Armor. BP Glass and protected tanks in 1939. In fact a few German aircraft shot down in the BoB in Aug (one Bf 110C recon plane in particular) did not have much in the way of protective equipment when examined. May have isolated but both sides were refitting existing aircraft as time and supplies allowed.

Armor often started as one or two plates behind the pilots seat Which may or may not have had head protection (extended above the shoulders) . Some planes got an armored seat bottom. Some planes got flat plates and some got curves. Some planes got armor or very thick sheet metal at the base of the windscreen.

Hi
As far as RAF Fighter Command is concerned the first protection for them was for the frontal area of single-seat fighters this included BP windscreens, this was to provide protection from return fire from the bombers they were expected to be attacking. In 1939 with the decision to send an expeditionary force to France with an air element including fighters, where it was expected that they would meet enemy single-seat fighters, then it was decided that the Hurricanes, that were to make up the fighter element, should have priority for armour plate behind the seat.
This is covered in the book 'Knights of the Skies, Armour Protection for British Fighting Aeroplanes' by Michael C Fox.

Mike

 

[marathag]

As far as RAF Fighter Command is concerned the first protection for them was for the frontal area of single-seat fighters this included BP windscreens, this was to provide protection from return fire from the bombers they were expected to be attacking

So why have a nice, unprotected fuel tank right ahead of the Pilot?

 

[drgondog]

So why have a nice, unprotected fuel tank right ahead of the Pilot?

CG considerations - and it won't make any difference whether unprotected fuel is aft or forward - other than your view of a grisly death.

 

[pbehn]

I think there was some protection on the front as per MikeMeech post, they had to quickly install rear armour when it was clear they would encounter fighters. The Spitfire had two tanks in front of the pilot the Hurricane had one with two wing tanks. It was the wing tanks that were the serious , although in the wings they were in the same open space as the pilots feet.

 

[GrauGeist]

Quite a few aircraft (Allied and Axis) had fuel tanks in front, behind or even below the cockpit.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Quite a few aircraft (Allied and Axis) had fuel tanks in front, behind or even below the cockpit.

Corsair was one with in-front, no? T-bolt as well? P-51 behind fo' sho.

Not gonna lie, I want it behind me.

 

[SaparotRob]

The Allies should have developed a fighter that didn't require fuel.

 

[pbehn]

The Allies should have developed a fighter that didn't require fuel.

I will have a look on Youtube, maybe they did, but someone stopped them using it.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

The Allies should have developed a fighter that didn't require fuel.

Pretty sure only the Nazis got that far.

 

[SaparotRob]

Running out of fuel isn't the same thing.

 

[pbehn]

Running out of fuel isn't the same thing.

I know, imagine all the movies that would have to be remade, no wonder it was kept secret.

 

[Shortround6]

I will have a look on Youtube, maybe they did, but someone stopped them using it.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

The Allies should have developed a fighter that didn't require fuel.

Pretty sure only the Nazis got that far.

Running out of fuel isn't the same thing.

Checkmate!

 

[SaparotRob]

Ya' know I was waiting for that one.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Ya' know I was waiting for that one.

I know --


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liQB7ZycEOg

 

[33k in the air]

View attachment 716118

Checkmate!

That's a mighty big hat.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

That's a mighty big hat.

Big enough to sport twin thirties! This reminds me, I need to call Stetson ...