Worst ww2 fighter

Conslaw · Jun 24, 2019

swampyankee said:
The P-26 was a first generation monoplane fighter; in 1941, it was past its best used-by date. It actually preceded the Gladiator into service

With a top speed of 230 MPH give or take most of the biplane fighters of the mid-1930s were faster than the P-26. The Gloster Gladiator I had a listed top speed of 253 MPH.

The Japanese Army's biplane Ki-10, which didn't even fly until 1935, had a similar top speed to the Gladiator, but also had surprising stats in its climb rate 1000 m/s (3,280 ft/sec) and service ceiling, 11,500 meters (37,730 ft). That service ceiling is higher than any of Japan's mass-produced fighters of World War II.

Wirbelwind · Jun 26, 2019

parsifal said:
I haven't voted yet. Im trying to tackle the issue of what makes "worst". I am thinking probably the aircraft that had the most resouces lavished on it and which delivered the least return for that investment.

An aircraft designed an built in 1930 and still around in 1940, but still provided some service to its country isn't necessarily the worst. if it can do the job expected of it, it helps as well.

The real losers are the ones for which massive resources were expended and which basically returned zip.. Aircraft that might fill that criteria might include: Me 163, A7M, as well as numerous allied types that just couldn't do what they were supposed to do. .

Also the Blackburn Firebrand.

nuuumannn · Jun 29, 2019

Mad Dog said:
IIRC, the last RAF loss in the ETO was a Typhoon credited to an He.162.

Hmm, my mistake. It was a Tempest, however, not a Typhoon. In Typhoon and Tempest At War by Chris Thomas and Chris Shores is the following: "Even on this last day of real action [4 May], a loss was suffered by 486 Sqn - the last of the war - when Fg Off Austin was brought down to force-land and became a prisoner. Although reportedly to Flak, it now seems that his aircraft was the sole victory to be claimed for the new He 162 jet, Lt Schmidt of IJG 1, just operational on this type, making a claim for a 'Typhoon' on this date."

Freebird · Jun 29, 2019

Shortround6 said:
I have done a quick and dirty tally of the kills (and damaged/probables) as listed in "Defiant, Blenheim and Havoc Aces" and will fully agree that it is only one book, and some other source/s may be more complete and authoritative.

With that said it appears that as a nightfighter The Defiant scored 1 kill in Aug 1940, 1 kill in Sep, 1 in Oct, 0 (?) in Nov and 1 in Dec 1940. Jan saw 1 kill, 2 in Feb,
7 (?) in March followed by 16 (?) in April and 18-19 (?) in May of 1941.

.

40 or so kills by the Defiant from Mar-June is a very substantial number, far more than the Roc or P-26 could dream of.

Shortround6 · Jun 29, 2019

Freebird said:
40 or so kills by the Defiant from Mar-June is a very substantial number, far more than the Roc or P-26 could dream of.

We are constantly told that the Defiant was one of Britain's best night fighters during the night Blitz of 1940-41.

Like Wiki quoting John Taylor. "As a counterpoint, aviation author John Taylor noted that during the Blitz on London of 1940–41, the four Defiant-equipped squadrons were responsible for shooting down more enemy aircraft than any other type in the theatre "

I believe there were more than 4 squadrons of Defiants by the spring of 1941. perhaps 7 squadrons?

Over 90 Aircraft were claimed by night fighters in the first two weeks of May and if only 18-19 were shot down by Defiants what was shooting down the rest?
The Blenheim was being phased out by May, the Boston/Havoc was being used as in intruder into France and being horrible misused in the turbinlite scheme so they weren't shooting down much.
Hurricane night fighters?

How about the Beaufighter? Just perhaps that was the most successful night fighter in the "theater".

I have no idea why you are bringing in the P-26 as a WW II fighter, sure it was in the Philippines but let's remember it went into service about year before the Gloster Gauntlet and 3 years before the Gloster Gladiator. The last one came off the production line in 1936.

GrauGeist · Jun 30, 2019

Shortround6 said:
I have no idea why you are bringing in the P-26 as a WW II fighter

Spanish Civil War (no kills, by the way), China and then the Philippines.

So *technically* speaking, it is included in aircraft involved in WWII and the fact that the Philippine Air Force pilots were able to down some A6Ms during the Philippine invasion is remarkable and a shining example of sheer determination in the face of overwhelming odds.

But the P-26 was not unique in being an anachronism in the whirlwind - there was the Polikarpov I-15 and Po-2 (U-2), the Tupolev Tb-3, Bristol Bulldog (provided first Finnish kill of the Winter War) and even a Vickers Valentia saw action in North Africa with the SAAF in the early 40's.
There's several other examples, but the bottom line is that there is a strange attraction to the underdog...

nuuumannn · Jun 30, 2019

Shortround6 said:
We are constantly told that the Defiant was one of Britain's best night fighters during the night Blitz of 1940-41.

It was. I mean, what else was there? Yes, the Beaufighter was better overall, but the Turbinlite was terrible, the Havoc was found wanting in the role, as was the Blenheim. Yes there were also Hurricane night fighters, so what are you left with? What exactly are you comparing it with?

Shortround6 said:
How about the Beaufighter? Just perhaps that was the most successful night fighter in the "theater".

Yes, it quite possibly was, but I think the point behind the Defiant is that it did have a far better career as a night fighter than as a day fighter - it was successful by the standards of the day, let's not forget that. The Beaufighter was better, hands down; it had radar, which the earlier Defiants didn't (even then only one scored a kill using radar), and this made all the difference. What the Defiant did however, was impressive given the limitations it faced. Had the Beaufighter not been fitted with radar (because, let's face it, the radar was unreliable and prone to failure, but when it worked it was worth its while) its arguable that its successes might not have been any better that the Defiant's.

nuuumannn · Jun 30, 2019

Shortround6 said:
Over 90 Aircraft were claimed by night fighters in the first two weeks of May and if only 18-19 were shot down by Defiants what was shooting down the rest?

Probably the Beaufighter and Hurricane. Just looking at the numbers, according to Squadrons! No.19 The Boulton Paul Defint Day and Night Fighter by Phil H. Listerman, in the first two weeks of May, 96 Sqn claimed 4 e/a, 141 Sqn, 6, 151 Sqn, 4, 255 Sqn, 6, 256 Sqn, 5, 264 Sqn, 6 and 307 Sqn 1 for a total of 32 in a two week period. So that equates to a third of the "over 90 aircraft claimed". Again though, the Beaufighter was responsible for the majority of those remaining, then that means the Defiant shot down more than the Hurricane, which means it definitely was "one of the best British night fighters" at the time. If someone could produce a list of Hurricane night kills in the first two weeks of May, that'd help.

Freebird · Jul 1, 2019

Shortround6 said:
How about the Beaufighter? Just perhaps that was the most successful night fighter in the "theater".

I have no idea why you are bringing in the P-26 as a WW II fighter, sure it was in the Philippines but let's remember it went into service about year before the Gloster Gauntlet and 3 years before the Gloster Gladiator. The last one came off the production line in 1936.

I mentioned the Roc or Peashooter because they were other poll options.
The BP Defiant wasnt a "great" WWII fighter, but it wasn't the worst.

Juha3 · Jul 5, 2019

nuuumannn said:
Hmm, my mistake. It was a Tempest, however, not a Typhoon. In Typhoon and Tempest At War by Chris Thomas and Chris Shores is the following: "Even on this last day of real action [4 May], a loss was suffered by 486 Sqn - the last of the war - when Fg Off Austin was brought down to force-land and became a prisoner. Although reportedly to Flak, it now seems that his aircraft was the sole victory to be claimed for the new He 162 jet, Lt Schmidt of IJG 1, just operational on this type, making a claim for a 'Typhoon' on this date."

in later Shores & Thomas, 2nd TAF Vol 3 (2006) "...There is possibility that his [Austin's] may have been the only 2nd TAF aircraft to fall to an He 162 jet, Lt R. Schmitt of I./JG 1 claiming a Typhoon shot down on this date; however, Austin had been experiencing engine trouble with his Tempest before this exploded, forcing him down" And there was also a suitable claim by a flak unit.
And definitely not the last RAF loss in ETO. This loss happened around 0710 o'clock but around 1100 o'clock 183 Sqn Typhoon IB was hit by flak and/or debris and S/L Cullen force-landed onto Fehmarn Is becoming a PoW.

Juha3
ex-Juha, ex-Juha2

Juha3 · Jul 5, 2019

JG1 lost thirteen He 162s and 10 pilots. Only 2 were shot down by the enemy. IMHO the worst cfeature was the very short flying time, of course not an unique feature among early or even a bit later, jet fighters. IIRC French noted that also after the war when they used 2? He 162s as jet familiarization planes.

Juha3
ex-Juha, ex-Juha2

Admiral Beez · Dec 15, 2019

The Vultee Vanguard seems to be unloved. Rejected the US and Britain, until dumped onto the Chinese.

wingnuts · Dec 15, 2019

GrauGeist said:
I'll go one better.

Here's the operational history of the P-26 at Joe Baugher's site.
Operational History of Boeing P-26

There is a PAF airbase named after Jesus Villamor next to Manila Airport (NAIA), also the location of the PAF Museum, worth a visit. Villamor also taught Ike to fly and flew bombers in the USAAF. If anyone is interested, the museum also displays the equipment of Japanese Second Lieutenant Hiroo Onoda, who finally surrendered in 1974.

-JJH- · Jan 3, 2020

Buffalo on the list ... interesting, considering that app. 500 was ever made, but still the type produced 40 aces

-JJ-

pgf_666 · Apr 27, 2020

-JJH- said:
Buffalo on the list ... interesting, considering that app. 500 was ever made, but still the type produced 40 aces

-JJ-

My father met Villamor--Pops was a cadet in charge of the Link Trainer, and some brainiac decided Villamor had to qualify. Dad was known for throwing the kitchen sink at operational pilots, and usually they failed the first flight. Nothing he threw at Villamor phased him, but kept flying 500 feet or so to one side of the 'beam', until, at the last moment, he sweeps in to a proper landing, after he crossed the 'fence'. Pop asked him why he'd done that. The Answer: "The Japanese also know how to fly the beam" Dad always replied, when asked which pilot he'd known impressed him the most, 'Villamor', much to the confusion of most of the questioners.

Oh, and any plane that destroys more of itself than the enemy has got to be at the top of the list--Me-163 B, no question....

Zipper730 · May 2, 2020

What was the plane that was called a guaranteed flying coffin by the USSR?

CORSNING · May 2, 2020

Zipper730 said:
What was the plane that was called a guaranteed flying coffin by the USSR?

Very early versions of the LaGG-3. I would still rather fly it than the Blackburn Roc.

Funny you should mention this one. I am in the middle of researching and posting this A/C on excel.

tengu1979 · May 30, 2020

Caudron C.714 takes it for me. On first look it looks modern-ish but everything is wrong with it:

Caudron C.714 - Wikipedia

swampyankee · May 30, 2020

tengu1979 said:
Caudron C.714 takes it for me. On first look it looks modern-ish but everything is wrong with it:

Caudron C.714 - Wikipedia

It just needed about 250 more horsepower to be competitive. I wonder how the C.760 version would have worked...

The entire lightweight fighter scheme was a bad idea. It is not comparable to the USAF program that resulted in the F-16 and, later, the USN program for the F-18. Those aircraft were only light in comparison with the F-15 and F-14.

tengu1979 · May 30, 2020

we'll never know. But fielding 500hp wooden fighter in 1940 was doomed from the start at least 4 small caliber mgs is not the worst it could have.

F-18 is vastly bigger than YF-17 Cobra and not that much smaller than f-15 really. And Super Hornet is even closer.

Worst ww2 fighter

Worst ww2 fighter

Mitsubishi A5M

Brewster Buffalo

Gloster gladiator (if you choose this you are CRAZY)

PZL P11 (watch it)

Boulton Paul Defiant

Policarpov I 16 (be prepared to explain)

Policarpov I 15

Boeing P-26 Peashooter (if you choose this I understand why)

Messerchmitt Bf 110 (you must be wierd to choose this....)

Fiat CR.32

Messerchmitt Bf210

Fiat CR.42

Macchi C.200

Mig 1

Blackburn Roc

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