WW2 Aircraft more successful in secondary role

[buffnut453]

Hmmm...how about the poor old Defiant? Did a decent job as a night fighter and also fulfilled ASR and target tug duties. Seems like a good candidate.

 

[pbehn]

The Wellington never did any good s a day bomber and was too small as a night bomber but seemed to be the British go to plane for all sorts of dogsbody roles from mine clearance mine lying and even an early type of AWACs, with 11,461 produced it must have had a lot of positives.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

BREDA 88

It failed at everything except being used as a decoy!

 

[stona]

The Wellington never did any good s a day bomber and was too small as a night bomber but seemed to be the British go to plane for all sorts of dogsbody roles from mine clearance mine lying and even an early type of AWACs, with 11,461 produced it must have had a lot of positives.

Hold on there, the Wellington was the mainstay of Bomber Command well into 1943. It was still making up the majority of aircraft on missions. It wasn't until May 1943 that it was consistently outnumbered by other types. It might be considered too small for a night bomber, but that's what it did, successfully for the first four years of the war. That's why so many were produced. One might compare it with its contemporary, also developed from Specification B.9/32, the Handley Page Hampden to realise just how good it was.
The Wellington was a successful night bomber and was indeed adapted to other roles following the large scale introduction of the second generation 'heavies', Halifax and of course Lancaster.
Cheers
Steve

 

[Shortround6]

The thing that bothers me about the Whirlwind is there seems to be a lot of "Chicken and the egg" stuff going on.

I understand that it wasn't as good as some other aircraft at being a fighter-bomber but then it never got the improvements some of them did. I understand that with the small numbers involved it didn't make sense to spend much time and money on such improvements.
But there seems to be trend that it didn't get improvements because other planes were "better" even though later in timing or other excuses are put forward.
To me it is amazing that the Whirlwind was operational over Europe (at least coastal Europe) in essentially unchanged condition (new tail wheel struts?) from what existed in 1940. Nobody was hanging bomb racks on Hurricane MK Is or Spitfire MK IIs and using them for fighter bombers in 1942/43. Germans weren't using 109E fighter bombers in 1942/43 or 110Cs either. At least in NW Europe on cross channel raids.

If Typhoons didn't carry 500lbs in quantity until Feb of 1943 then why is the Whirlwind looked down upon for carrying 250lb bombs in 1942 and early 1943?
And more importantly, what were the 2 squadrons of Hurricanes carrying in 1942?
And what were the speeds of the Hurricane and Whirlwind, each with 250lbs at sea level or at least at 5,000ft or under?
That was the altitude that most of the raids in 1942 were conducted at. Crossing the Channel at low altitude to evade German radar.
These were small raids of flight of aircraft, if that, but not multiple squadrons.

 

[buffnut453]

To add another to the list - the Westland Lysander. Didn't succeed as an Army Co-op aircraft but excelled at clandestine missions and other roles.

 

[gjs238]

I didnt realise that mail delivery was used to develop aviation all around the world.

Kevin Costner used mail delivery to recover post-apocalyptic society.
The Postman (film) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Shortround6]

To add another to the list - the Westland Lysander. Didn't succeed as an Army Co-op aircraft but excelled at clandestine missions and other roles.

Trouble with the Lysander is that they built almost 1800 of them. The agent dropping (and picking up) was by three squadrons at the most and the majority of missions was flown by one squadron and even that squadron wasn't fully equipped with Lysanders.
You wound up with hundreds of target tugs that couldn't reach 220mph without a tailwind even without the target sleeve trailing behind.
They may help with teaching basic principles but left a bit to be desired as far as realistic practice went.

 

[eagledad]

I would like to nominate the Armstrong Whitworth Albemarle, an aircraft orginaly designed as a medium bomber that left its mark as a glider tug and aircraft used to drop paratroopers. I don't believe it was ever deployed as a bomber but used as a transport. It saw service in North Africa, Sicily, at Overlord and at Arnhem.

Eagledad

 

[gjs238]

Trouble with the Lysander is that they built almost 1800 of them. The agent dropping (and picking up) was by three squadrons at the most and the majority of missions was flown by one squadron and even that squadron wasn't fully equipped with Lysanders.
You wound up with hundreds of target tugs that couldn't reach 220mph without a tailwind even without the target sleeve trailing behind.
They may help with teaching basic principles but left a bit to be desired as far as realistic practice went.

The Lysander's couldn't be used as liaison aircraft like the L-5 Sentinel or L-4 Grasshopper?

 

[stona]

I'll second the Albermarle.

Cheers

Steve

 

[stona]

It is telling that in June 1943, when 137 Squadron ceased operations with the Whirlwind it was converted to the Hurricane, handing over its last nine serviceable Whirlwinds to 263 Squadron (at what is now called London Southend Airport ).
263 soldiered on until December when the first Typhoons arrived. On 4th January, following a party thrown by Westland for the squadron, the end of the Whirlwind was marked with a fly past of the twelve serviceable examples over Yeovil, described by the squadron's diarist, probably himself also hung over, in these words.
"Three incredibly crooked lines of Whirlwinds staggered over Yeovil."
And that was that, three and a half years of service came to an end. The pilots would have been better employed flying other types, particularly in 1940/41. There was rarely ever even a couple of dozen examples serviceable across the two squadrons at any one time. There is a clue in the numbers setting off on operations, five, seven, eight, not even by flights but by all available.
It was a nice looking aircraft, but it was initially axed, receiving only a limited reprieve in late 1939. There was never any intention to develop it, Westland were asked simply to supply spares for the life of the aircraft. They were only built to use up material and avoid waste.
In these terms it did alright, but in 1940 it was not a competitive front line fighter, as Dowding and others made quite clear, and in 1942/43 it was not a particularly good fighter bomber, but then nothing was until the advent/conversion of the Typhoon. The point is that the Whirlwind did not excel in either role.
Cheers
Steve

 

[pinehilljoe]

The Hawker Typhoon, intended to be a fighter, but excelled in ground attach.

 

[Shortround6]

The Lysander's couldn't be used as liaison aircraft like the L-5 Sentinel or L-4 Grasshopper?

The Lysander was a 6000lb aircraft with a 870hp engine.
The L-5 Sentinel was a 2000lb aircraft with a 185-190hp engine.
The L-4 Grasshopper was a 1200lb aircraft with a 65hp engine.

You could use a Lysander as a liaison aircraft and that was part of it's original duties but it was a very expensive way to get the job done and obviously it used a lot of fuel doing that job. It also used 87 octane av-gas. While it might not be advisable to run the L-5 and L-4 on truck gasoline they required either 73 or 80 octane fuel (Sherman tanks took 80 octane) and so could use standard Army gas in emergencies.

A LOT of planes were used as "communications" aircraft which basically meant they were capable of carrying at least one high priority passenger and sometimes they were just old fighter aircraft that let a pilot fly from one airfield to another without racking up hours on a service aircraft.
The planes were pretty much what ever was available and hardly the most effective way of moving even small numbers of people/material.
For example the British assigned 5 left over French Curtiss dive bombers to a "Communications" squadron before down grading them to ground schools.

Later in the War the British got over 800 of these (in various models)

That would hold 4 people including pilot. Most were assigned to the ATA and were used for returning ferry pilots back to the bases/manufacturers that were distributing planes.
Obviously there were much more efficient aircraft for communications and liaison duties than redundant combat aircraft. It is just that that had become habit during the 20s/30s when what ever budget money there was went for NEW combat aircraft and secondary duties were done with whatever aircraft had been replaced in the front line squadrons.
It didn't take too long before some people realized that with a few modifications smaller, purpose built aircraft could do jobs the bigger older ex-warhorses could not.
One use for L-5 Sentinels

Fold the seat forward and then fold that wooden panel forward and load stretcher/patient.

 

[Shortround6]

It is telling that in June 1943, when 137 Squadron ceased operations with the Whirlwind it was converted to the Hurricane, handing over its last nine serviceable Whirlwinds to 263 Squadron (at what is now called London Southend Airport ).
263 soldiered on until December when the first Typhoons arrived. On 4th January, following a party thrown by Westland for the squadron, the end of the Whirlwind was marked with a fly past of the twelve serviceable examples over Yeovil, described by the squadron's diarist, probably himself also hung over, in these words.
"Three incredibly crooked lines of Whirlwinds staggered over Yeovil."
And that was that, three and a half years of service came to an end. The pilots would have been better employed flying other types, particularly in 1940/41. There was rarely ever even a couple of dozen examples serviceable across the two squadrons at any one time. There is a clue in the numbers setting off on operations, five, seven, eight, not even by flights but by all available.
It was a nice looking aircraft, but it was initially axed, receiving only a limited reprieve in late 1939. There was never any intention to develop it, Westland were asked simply to supply spares for the life of the aircraft. They were only built to use up material and avoid waste.
In these terms it did alright, but in 1940 it was not a competitive front line fighter, as Dowding and others made quite clear, and in 1942/43 it was not a particularly good fighter bomber, but then nothing was until the advent/conversion of the Typhoon. The point is that the Whirlwind did not excel in either role.
Cheers
Steve

And here again we get into the Chicken and egg thing. Which came first?

"The pilots would have been better employed flying other types, particularly in 1940/41"

No 263 Squadron only became fully equipped with Whirlwinds in Nov of 1940. They had been partially equipped with Hurricanes until then. No 137 Squadron wasn't even formed until Sept of 1941 so wasn't flying anything. It didn't go operational until the end of Oct 1941.
Perhaps the pilots of No 263 Squadron should have been flying Defiants in daylight at the end of 1940 in order to better contribute to the war effort? Or the squadron should have been reequipped with Gladiators after reforming from the losses of the Norwegian campaign?
Hurricanes didn't get cannon until June of 1941 so until late summer or fall of 1941 if you wanted operational 20mm armed ground attack planes you were stuck with either the few Whirlwinds or trying to use Beaufighters. Fortunately nobody came up with the Idea of using Beaufighters as "bait" in the lean forward into France campaign (or if they did the need for night fighters squashed it)

No 137 squadron was re-equipped with MK IV Hurricanes, which are hardly what most people think of as "fighter-bombers" seeing as how they had been pretty much castrated as fighters by cutting the built in armament to a single .303 gun in each wing. Main armament was either the rockets or bombs. Once the underwing ordnance was gone the MK IV was only little more effective than a Sopwith Camel for ground attack. The increased armor was probably a good thing for ground attack. No 137 squadron gave up it's Hurricanes for Typhoons in about 6-7 months. Perhaps some of the delay was due to problems with the Typhoon????
The RAF may have been placing an over enthusiastic emphasis on rocket attacks at this time.

Proper training could have made a difference in some these attacks or made them more effective. Unfortunately it was pretty much a learn as you go deal for the squadrons involved, a few practice runs and then off to France.

Once again, can anybody come up with a plane that was "axed" in 1939 that was still in combat in 1943?
Hs 123???

 

[stona]

What about the Hawker Hector? Yet another Army cooperation aircraft (which tells you the date of its development) which was absolutely vital to the development of British airborne capability, particularly glider operations. If it hadn't been for the Hectors, huffing and puffing over the hedge line at Thame (previously known as Haddenham) with Hotspurs in tow, the first Hotspur arrived in April 1941, there would have been no glider operations.
Cheers
Steve

 

[stona]

And here again we get into the Chicken and egg thing. Which came first?

"The pilots would have been better employed flying other types, particularly in 1940/41"

No 137 squadron was re-equipped with MK IV Hurricanes, which are hardly what most people think of as "fighter-bombers" seeing as how they had been pretty much castrated as fighters by cutting the built in armament to a single .303 gun in each wing. Main armament was either the rockets or bombs. Once the underwing ordnance was gone the MK IV was only little more effective than a Sopwith Camel for ground attack. The increased armor was probably a good thing for ground attack. No 137 squadron gave up it's Hurricanes for Typhoons in about 6-7 months. Perhaps some of the delay was due to problems with the Typhoon????
The RAF may have been placing an over enthusiastic emphasis on rocket attacks at this time.

Proper training could have made a difference in some these attacks or made them more effective. Unfortunately it was pretty much a learn as you go deal for the squadrons involved, a few practice runs and then off to France.

Once again, can anybody come up with a plane that was "axed" in 1939 that was still in combat in 1943?
Hs 123???

The Whirlwind should have been axed in 1939, decisively, and the pilots could then have flown other types. It wasn't completely axed because the Air Ministry was hedging its bets, as it often did, looking at a potential reconnaissance role for the type, presumably low level.

You can be picky about whether the Mk IV Hurricane was a true fighter bomber, it was certainly a fighter converted to a bombing role.

The Whirlwind pilots did have special training, most had attended the 'Specialised Low Attack Instructors School' at Milfield. 137 Squadron sent a few who hadn't to this school prior to adopting the Hurricane.
263 Squadron was operational with the Typhoon less than one month after cashing in the last 14 serviceable Whirlwinds, including those it had taken on from 137 Squadron, which were flown to 18 MU at Dumfries to join 2 already there. Work being undertaken by Westland on another 3 was cancelled. In early 1943 the RAF had, theoretically serviceable, a grand total of 16 Whirlwinds, and insignificant number, irrelevant.
263 Squadron began training on Typhoons on 12th January (the Whirlwind had been declared obsolescent on 1st January) and attacked Maupertus airfield with them on 3rd February.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Shortround6]

"absolutely vital" how???
If every single Napier Dagger engine had blown themselves to bits in Sept of 1939 it wouldn't have made a bit of difference to the war effort. They would have dredged up some other obsolete airframe/engine combo/s and used them to tow gliders in training flights.
Perhaps even used a few hundred of those target towing Lysanders for glider towing instead?

AS a matter of fact, from Wiki on the Hotspur.
Towing trials began in February 1941 with a Boulton & Paul Overstrand bomber.

 

[stona]

AS a matter of fact, from Wiki on the Hotspur.
Towing trials began in February 1941 with a Boulton & Paul Overstrand bomber.

Nothing to do with the development of airborne operations.

In fact the nascent glider training courses had a great deal of trouble acquiring any aircraft from either the Army Cooperation squadrons or Bomber Command though the latter did provide some old bombers for parachute training.
They did get hold of the Hectors, without which none of the basic questions being asked in mid 1941 would have been answered.
What was the composition of a glider borne Air Landing Brigade to be?
What loads could the operationaI gliders carry, and how would they perform?
What tactics would be used?
Would the glider pilots be airmen or soldiers? Initially they were referred to as coxswains and not even afforded the title, pilot.
When they finished training as Hotspur pilots would Bomber Command be willing to convert them to the Horsa?
Would that Command allow operations to be mounted from its bases and if not, where would the tugs come from?
The first few were answered with the development of training at Thame, with the Hectors. The reason it was done with Hectors is precisely because the glider training school, described by one of its own senior officers as "an amusing side show" to the rest of the forces in 1941, couldn't get anything else. That's why they were so important.

Cheers

Steve

 

[Glider]

Not factually wrong about the Whirlwind, but so few were built, and even fewer operated, making it debatable whether it was a success at all in any meaningful way.

Total production just over 100 and less than 70 converted to 'Whirlibombers'. Others discussed were produced in thousands or tens of thousands!

Cheers

Steve

The Whirlwind was a very good dive bomber but my vote for the secondary role would be the P40. Very good GA aircraft but so so fighter