The problem for the P,51 in this respect is that it was put in service first by the R.A.F. they had no bombers to escort in daylight across the channel most objectives were at ground level.
WW2 Aircraft more successful in secondary role
- Thread starter wuzak
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- #162
wuzak
Captain
Did it perform any of those better than its primary role as fighter?
Really?
Tell me more please. I hadn't heard of this role.
Greg Boeser
1st Lieutenant
Actually, the Ki-45 DID serve as a long range bomber escort in mid '42 over China. And it performed admirably in that role until it encountered AVG interceptors.
Perhaps he is referring to H2X radar?
Lockheed P-38 Lightning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Lightning was modified for other roles. In addition to the F-4 and F-5 reconnaissance variants, a number of P-38Js and P-38Ls were field-modified as formation bombing "pathfinders" or "droopsnoots", fitted with a glazed nose with a Norden bombsight, or a H2X radar "bombing through overcast" nose. A pathfinder would lead a formation of other P-38s, each overloaded with two 2,000 lb (907 kg) bombs; the entire formation releasing when the pathfinder did.
H2X - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In Europe several P-38 fighters were also converted to carrying H2X radar in the nose, along with an operator/navigator in a cramped compartment in the nose behind the radar dish, provided with small side windows and an access/exit hatch in the floor (much like the earlier P-38 "Droop Snoot" bomber-leader variants, but with a radome instead of a glazed nose). These missions were to obtain radar maps of German targets but plans to produce the variant in quantity never materialized.
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I know the quotes are from Wikipedia, but I find it hard to believe that a P-38 (or anything else) could be 'field modified' to carry H2X and associated paraphernalia. Post production? Yes, this was often the case with H2S in British aircraft, but in the field?...
What were they planning to make? A map of H2S images of Germany? Here is an H2S image, taken by the British during testing over the East Midlands. You'll have to take my word for it, but it is a very good image, they were often far more 'confused'.
The solid white line is the bearing the aircraft is flying on. The circle is either ten mile radius or diametre, I can't remember! It was easy for the British too identify Leicester, Loughborough and Melton Mowbray (pork pies!) because they knew where the aircraft was flying. In the absence of any obvious distinguishing feature which would show up on radar, like a river or coastline, it would be impossible for an H2S operator to know what the various areas of reflected energy in his scanner actually represented. They had enough problems doing it visually in daylight.
Cheers
Steve
What were they planning to make? A map of H2S images of Germany? Here is an H2S image, taken by the British during testing over the East Midlands. You'll have to take my word for it, but it is a very good image, they were often far more 'confused'.
The solid white line is the bearing the aircraft is flying on. The circle is either ten mile radius or diametre, I can't remember! It was easy for the British too identify Leicester, Loughborough and Melton Mowbray (pork pies!) because they knew where the aircraft was flying. In the absence of any obvious distinguishing feature which would show up on radar, like a river or coastline, it would be impossible for an H2S operator to know what the various areas of reflected energy in his scanner actually represented. They had enough problems doing it visually in daylight.
Cheers
Steve
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<SNIP>
What were they planning to make? A map of H2S images of Germany? Here is an H2S image, taken by the British during testing over the East Midlands. You'll have to take my word for it, but it is a very good image, they were often far more 'confused'.
The solid white line is the bearing the aircraft is flying on. The circle is either ten mile radius or diametre, I can't remember! It was easy for the British too identify Leicester, Loughborough and Melton Mowbray (pork pies!) because they knew where the aircraft was flying. In the absence of any obvious distinguishing feature which would show up on radar, like a river or coastline, it would be impossible for an H2S operator to know what the various areas of reflected energy in his scanner actually represented. They had enough problems doing it visually in daylight.
Cheers
Steve
H2X was what was being used, not H2S
H2X - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It differed from the original H2S mainly in its operating frequency which was in the X band rather than H2S' S band. This gave H2X higher resolution than H2S, which had problems over large cities, which appeared as a single mass on the H2S display.
H2X used a shorter 3 cm "centimetric" wavelength (10 GHz frequency) than the H2S, giving a higher angular resolution and thus a sharper picture, which allowed much finer details to be discerned, aiding in target identification.
It is effectively the same thing. H2X was the US code for the American 'development' of the British H2S system. Of course the British developed H2S too as the war went one
The early test image I posted was taken using a 10cm wavelength (it's marked on the photograph), later this was reduced to 3cm.
Cheers
Steve
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- #168
wuzak
Captain
I think Steve was referring to the size of the equipment of H2S/H2X radar.
Here is a picture of a Mosquito experimentally flying with H2S
AIRCRAFT OF THE ROYAL AIR FORCE 1939-1945 DE HAVILLAND DH 98 MOSQUITO (MH 4647)
Here is a B-17 with a retractable radar dome.
http://www.wdnorton.nl/B-17 GSH 42-3486/B-17Gs96thBGwithMickeyRadar-1[1].jpg
Note that the ball turret was removed in this installation.
And an earlier installation
http://www.wdnorton.nl/B-17 GSH 42-3486/EarlyB17H2X Radar an early hand-built .gif
The radar operator's station
https://timeandnavigation.si.edu/si..._radar_-_national_archives_342-fh-3a12719.jpg
Here is a picture of a Mosquito experimentally flying with H2S
AIRCRAFT OF THE ROYAL AIR FORCE 1939-1945 DE HAVILLAND DH 98 MOSQUITO (MH 4647)
Here is a B-17 with a retractable radar dome.
http://www.wdnorton.nl/B-17 GSH 42-3486/B-17Gs96thBGwithMickeyRadar-1[1].jpg
Note that the ball turret was removed in this installation.
And an earlier installation
http://www.wdnorton.nl/B-17 GSH 42-3486/EarlyB17H2X Radar an early hand-built .gif
The radar operator's station
https://timeandnavigation.si.edu/si..._radar_-_national_archives_342-fh-3a12719.jpg
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- #170
wuzak
Captain
Also, it is often said that H2X was an American development (ie better) than H2S. In fact H2X was heavily based on the 3cm ASV radar used by Coastal Command.
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- #171
wuzak
Captain
A couple of H2S radar scope pictures from 1945
An H2S radar image taken from a cathode-ray tube display monitor on board a Mosquito aircraft of 139 Pathfinder Squadron RAF. The aerial view, from 24000 feet, shows the areas affected by fires ...
An H2S radar image taken from a cathode-ray tube display monitor on board a Mosquito aircraft of 139 Pathfinder Squadron RAF. The aerial view, from 25000 feet, shows the areas affected by fires ...
The second one was taken from a Mosquito. The Mosquito was similar in size to the P-38, but was designed at the outset to be a 2 seater, and the H2S radar was fitted under the fuselage, using space in the bomb bay, going by the picture of the test model earlier.
The 8th AF also used, experimentally, Oboe Mk I. At the time the RAF BC had moved to Oboe Mk II and Gee H, but feared that the Germans would get a hold of the system more easily with US bombers carrying them too, and thus be able to counter the system.
An H2S radar image taken from a cathode-ray tube display monitor on board a Mosquito aircraft of 139 Pathfinder Squadron RAF. The aerial view, from 24000 feet, shows the areas affected by fires ...
An H2S radar image taken from a cathode-ray tube display monitor on board a Mosquito aircraft of 139 Pathfinder Squadron RAF. The aerial view, from 25000 feet, shows the areas affected by fires ...
The second one was taken from a Mosquito. The Mosquito was similar in size to the P-38, but was designed at the outset to be a 2 seater, and the H2S radar was fitted under the fuselage, using space in the bomb bay, going by the picture of the test model earlier.
The 8th AF also used, experimentally, Oboe Mk I. At the time the RAF BC had moved to Oboe Mk II and Gee H, but feared that the Germans would get a hold of the system more easily with US bombers carrying them too, and thus be able to counter the system.
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Shortround6
Lieutenant General
Last photo was taken in Burbank, CA. The planes carried AN/APS-15 radar.
Those are much more typical images. It's not hard to see why bombing accurately by such a system was impossible. Sometimes a really good and recognisable image could be achieved.
This is another British test image, clearly showing the River Humber and its estuary. Hull would be just west of the top of the larger bend in the river, but unless you know that you can't see it.
Cheers
Steve
This is another British test image, clearly showing the River Humber and its estuary. Hull would be just west of the top of the larger bend in the river, but unless you know that you can't see it.
Cheers
Steve
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- #175
wuzak
Captain
Well, there you go....
Only thing, the radar seems to be pointing in the wrong direction - forwards, not downwards.
Only thing, the radar seems to be pointing in the wrong direction - forwards, not downwards.
H2X (operating in the X band) was an Ameican development of H2S. The British too developed H2S operating in this band with a 3cm wavelength. H2S III, the most commonly used type from early 1944 on, did precisely that.
Cheers
Steve
Those are much more typical images. It's not hard to see why bombing accurately by such a system was impossible. Sometimes a really good and recognisable image could be achieved.
This is another British test image, clearly showing the River Humber and its estuary. Hull would be just west of the top of the larger bend in the river, but unless you know that you can't see it.
Cheers
Steve
Is that H2S or H2X?
Shortround6
Lieutenant General
A different Wiki article (one on the AN/APS-15 radar) says that the P-38s were being used to make radar maps, much a like a number of mosquitoes were being used. This particular radar seemed to overload the Mosquitoes electrical system (or poor installation?) causing a number of failures and even lost aircraft.
The radar operator sat (squished?) behind the radar under the clear panel shown in the photos. The radar itself weighed about 370lbs and with the removal of the guns/ammo weight was probably not a big issue.
In one spec sheet for the radar it was claimed it could pick a harbour buoy at 15 nautical miles.
The Pacific War Online Encyclopedia: APS-15 Airborne Radar
The radar operator sat (squished?) behind the radar under the clear panel shown in the photos. The radar itself weighed about 370lbs and with the removal of the guns/ammo weight was probably not a big issue.
In one spec sheet for the radar it was claimed it could pick a harbour buoy at 15 nautical miles.
The Pacific War Online Encyclopedia: APS-15 Airborne Radar
It's the same thing. H2X is just the American code, they chose X because that is the frequency band it operates in (roughly 7-11 GHz), why the British chose H2S is a subject of some debate. R V Jones gives one entertaining explanation. The early H2S worked on a longer, 10cm, wavelength, but the American H2X and later versions of H2S both operated at 3cm.
Wavelength x Frequency = Speed of Light (c), which makes one easy to work out if you know the other (and c of course)
Both were derived from the work of Randall and Boot (at Birmingham University, just up the road from where I'm sitting) on the cavity magnetron, which had been around for several years by the early 1940s.
Cheers
Steve
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