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Zipper I think you are getting to hung up on numbers, as far as I know the first thing to be affected by compressibility is the instrument that measures the planes speed, indicated air speeds of mach 0.92 are a bit of a joke with a pitot tube.This doesn't look right, I know a Spitfire VIII was tested up to Mach 0.891, though that was pushing the airplane into a territory that was beyond the placard limit (0.85)
From what I remember the placard limit of the P-51D was 0.75, and was dove once to Mach 0.84 or 0.85 with skin buckling occurring. I'm not sure how much different the dive speeds were with the P-51B and D, though the -D might have had more drag due to it's canopy.
1. Spitfire Mk.VII/VIII's were fitted with a stronger wing than the previous designs: The placard limit was around 0.85, though tests were done up to 0.891. During at least one of these tests, the propeller came off and the pilot managed to glide the plane and put her down somewhere.
2. During the development of the Miles M.52, they fitted a Spitfire PR variant with a stabilator: Dives were successfully done all the way up to 0.92 mach
3. In 1952, an atmospheric sampling flight went awry and a maximum speed of 0.94 was achieved, and the plane barely recovered. I'm not sure to what degree the plane took damage.
Is "Fundamentals of Aerodynamics" similar?Anderson's Introduction to Flight
You need a sound background in differential and integral calculus - it is an intermediate but rigorous text that will lead you to Computational Fluid Dynamics with Numerical Methods for solution of non-linear partial differential equations.Is "Fundamentals of Aerodynamics" similar?
No, they are 'similar' but his Intro to Flight doesn't force knowledge of higher math to master the end of Chapter problems.So, that would be no then
The critical Mach number for the P-38 was .68/.70 one of the earliest of all the topline fighters in WWII. The wing was designed for Fuel storage and lift at a time before wing shapes like the Laminar flow wing on the P-51. It needs to be remembered that It was only criticle above 20,000ft and even the early P-38s were able to keep the enemy plane in sight through the dive if proper procedures were followed - close throttles and go to flat pitch on the props. The P-38 could always catch up on the level.
As I understand it the eliptical wing on the Spit was able to keep the critical speed up.
edit: Interestingly Warren Bodie in his research for his book of the P-38 (I recomend it for all WWIIaviation buffs) The P-38 had less fatalities due to compresability issues than either the P-51 or the P-47 the P-38 was higher profile and was sent to war over a year earlier with much development done in combat for everyone to see any problems.
"I think that the Spitfire's high drag divergence speed, relative to the Mustang is due to a combination of features, not just the wing or wing airfoil design." -- Dave Lednicer
I've heard that name before... if I recall it had to do with an analysis of the B-24's wing.swampyankee said:I'm going to defer to my former co-worker, Dave Lednicer
What other variables if I may ask?"I think that the Spitfire's high drag divergence speed, relative to the Mustang is due to a combination of features, not just the wing or wing airfoil design."
I didn't know that, but I do remember some P-51's had those in WWII...tomo pauk said:Spitfire was with rear view mirror
Good pointprotruding cannon barrels & bulges (when cannons were there)
You mean the tail-wheel? I always wondered why the British had those hanging out on so many of their aircraft when we pretty much always tucked 'em in.undercarriage was not fully covered until the lates marks
I'm not sure I follow here...early marks were with performance-robbing carbs and exhausts
That's pretty weird, though I didn't notice it until I just did an image search: Why did they put the bullet-proof pane outside the canopy? Most designs seemed to have them forming the forward canopy piece...draggy external BP glass
Just to be clear you mean the angle was closer to 90-degrees up than the P-51? Last I checked angling it back would get the lowest drag...windrscreen was more steep than on the P-51
Was this an RAF problem as a whole?the fit & finish left something to be desired
The spitfire had two radiators on the Merlin 60's (one under one wing which covered engine and oil; the other covering the intercooler) right?the addition of intercoolers and greater cooling capacity invoked far greater drag penalty than it was the case with P-51
Fascinating...British have calculated that a Spitfire V with individual exhausts, uncluttered ram air intake, better windscreen, without cannons & bulges protruding (so only 8 MGs), better fit & finish and no rear view mirror would've done above 400 mph, while the Spit IX with similar treatment was supposed to beat 440 mph mark - on par with Merlin Mustang.
What other variables if I may ask?
I didn't know that, but I do remember some P-51's had those in WWII...
You mean the tail-wheel? I always wondered why the British had those hanging out on so many of their aircraft when we pretty much always tucked 'em in.
I'm not sure I follow here...
That's pretty weird, though I didn't notice it until I just did an image search: Why did they put the bullet-proof pane outside the canopy? Most designs seemed to have them forming the forward canopy piece...
Just to be clear you mean the angle was closer to 90-degrees up than the P-51? Last I checked angling it back would get the lowest drag...
The spitfire had two radiators on the Merlin 60's (one under one wing which covered engine and oil; the other covering the intercooler) right?
...
You mean the tail-wheel? I always wondered why the British had those hanging out on so many of their aircraft when we pretty much always tucked 'em in.
<carb issues>I'm not sure I follow here...
That's pretty weird, though I didn't notice it until I just did an image search: Why did they put the bullet-proof pane outside the canopy? Most designs seemed to have them forming the forward canopy piece...
Was this an RAF problem as a whole?
True, but he outlined areas that limited the airplane's top-speed, not played a role in the high drag-divergence mach-number being high outside the wings. That's why I said that.Tomo went through a number of them.
Expediency makes sense, as for cost I have no idea how much a Spitfire cost compared USAAF contemporaries.Cheaper and easier to build.
I thought that had to do with the float chamber, and a lack of pressure-injection?Early marks of Merlin had carburetors which would cut out under negative G.
So the tighter elbow basically negated ram-compression gains? How did the V-1710, R-1820, R-1830, R-2600, R-2800, and R-3350 compare in this regard?They also had tight elbows from the carburetor to the eye of the supercharger impeller. Once that was opened out by Sir Stanley Hooker the full throttle height was increased several thousand feet.
Meaning it was added as the plane was either undergoing development, or was already in service?Because, when the Spitfire was originally designed it was not a standard fitment to fighters.
GotchaThe Spitfire's screen was more upright.
So the greater drag didn't have to do with two radiators versus one, merely the cowl-flaps, and the size of the outlet area?Spitfires with 2 stage Merlins or Griffons had two coolant radiators, on on each side. One side also contained the intercooler radiator and the other the oil cooler.
Joe Smith, who took over as lead designer at Supermarine after the passing of Reginald Mitchell, admitted that the Spitfire radiator design was no optimum, due to using 2 position flaps and having the outlet area too big.
And the Seversky P-35Mostly everyone's 1st monoplane fighters have had tail wheel made non-retractable, including the US types like WIldcat and Buffalo.
Mid-war fighters, including the British types, including the Spitfire VII/VIII, were with retractable tail wheel.
That makes enough senseThe carbs used before 1943 on the Merlins were could not be heated, thus the need to protect them from the icing arose. The Protection was the metallic oval ring in front of the carb, called "ice guard". It messed with air flow, cost was 8 mph on the Spitfire V. The pressure injection carbs, standard issue on American engines, called 'fuel pumps' in the UK, could be heated, thus the ice guard can be dispensed with*.
So the tighter elbow basically negated ram-compression gains? How did the V-1710, R-1820, R-1830, R-2600, R-2800, and R-3350 compare in this regard?
Meaning it was added as the plane was either undergoing development, or was already in service?
So the greater drag didn't have to do with two radiators versus one, merely the cowl-flaps, and the size of the outlet area?
And the Seversky P-35
I'm going to defer to my former co-worker, Dave Lednicer, who, among other things, designed one of the first cambered airfoils for a helicopter main rotor, the RAH-66 Comanche's fenestron, and moved from Sikorsky to AMI, one of the leading companies in the CFD business. He's one of the sharpest aerodynamicists in the business (just ask John Roncz)
"I think that the Spitfire's high drag divergence speed, relative to the Mustang is due to a combination of features, not just the wing or wing airfoil design." -- Dave Lednicer
(Dave Lednicer has performed and published a couple of articles on the CFD analysis of WW2 aircraft:
Lednicer, D., "A CFD Evaluation of Three Prominent World War II Fighter Aircraft," Aeronautical Journal of the Royal Aeronautical Society, June/July 1995.
Lednicer, D. and Gilchrist, I., "A Retrospective: Computational Aerodynamics Analysis Methods Applied to the P-51 Mustang," AIAA paper 91-3288, September 1991.
The quote is from The Spitfire (David Lednicer) http://www.yarchive.net/air/spitfire.html
The "bend" that Hooker straightened out (or opened up) was between the carburetor and the supercharger.
It had nothing to do with the ram pressure delivered to the mouth of the carburetor. Yes it was a choke point (on a number of engines besides the Merlin) but it affected overall airflow. We very often confuse pressure with mass airflow (volume) because there are times when they are dependent on each other or because with a given supercharger set up volume and pressure correspond rather well. Change the supercharger or change some aspects of it and the relation ship between pressure and volume no longer works. The "new" supercharger could flow more or less air at the pressure.
Very few, if any, superchargers, had good inlets before Hooker and some engines never caught up despite having several years to do so.