WW2 Strategic Bomber Characteristics

[mhuxt]

Those numbers in Sharp and Bowyer are exclusively 4,000 lb bombs dropped by Mosquitos, yes, the table has totals for other types of bombs (less than 4k) as well.

 

[wuzak]

Those numbers in Sharp and Bowyer are exclusively 4,000 lb bombs dropped by Mosquitos, yes, the table has totals for other types of bombs (less than 4k) as well.

Sorry, I meant the table posted by Aozora. I have that same book, and the meaning of the table is not explained clearly.

PS what is the 4000lb M2? Is that the 4000lb MC Mk II?

 

[mhuxt]

Not sure, but it seems to have been standard terminology - shows up in the detailed report on the Dresden raid contained in this:

http://www.airpowerstudies.co.uk/APR Vol 5 No 1.pdf

 

[stona]

Dresden.

Makes you think but 135,000???????

Steve

 

[mhuxt]

Yes, I noticed that too. Best estimate currently, after the "Historikerkomission" is IIRC 25,000.

Hope I don't get smitten with the Ban Hammer for thread creep - all I wanted to do was show M2 was standard RAF parlance, must be some kind of mine / blast bomb, Cookie Mk.II seems as good a guess as any.

 

[wuzak]

I note that on that Mission the first main force bombers took off between 6:10pm and 6:20pm. The Pathfinders marking the target left between 7:57pm and 8:05pm.

 

[stona]

I note that on that Mission the first main force bombers took off between 6:10pm and 6:20pm. The Pathfinders marking the target left between 7:57pm and 8:05pm.

That must be the 9 Mosquitos. There would have been more marking than that,the various "shifters","backers up" etc. Presumably this was done by Lancasters. This is not at all unusual.

Cheers

Steve

 

[parsifal]

Exactly so. One of the reasons that the low level penetrations that I described earlier as strategic "pin pricks" were sometimes successful is because they involved few aircraft,were infrequent and thereby were unexpected. They had the element of surprise.Most mornings the Luftwaffe command didn't wake up expecting to have to intercept a low level raid by a few high speed intruders!
To imagine that large formations of Mosquitos could carry out a strategic bombing campaign flying just about every day the weather allowed with the same level of losses as the special raids doesn't seem plausible at all.
Cheers
Steve

The RAF did NOT attack at every opportunity that the weather permitted. For example over the 113 day period 3rd November 1943 to the 25th February, 1944 BC carried out 31 major raids, 15 of which were against Berlin. The period is generally referred to as the "Battle of Berlin". There were far more than just 31 days of flyable weather in that period.

Post war, the RAF found that when finally applied to bombing, in terms of useful damage done, the Mosquito had proved 4.95 times cheaper than the Lancaster (AVIA 46/116 De Haviland Mosquito papers, 1939–1945). That estimate include aircrew costs incidentally. Sure they were not really capable of dropping the tonnages of a Lanc per a/c, but a large number of aircraft travelling at twice the speed of a Heavy Bomber, not as troublked by flak (due to the high speed) and untroubled by enemy fighters (or mostly untroubled) is going to do a lot of damage if thge numbers are there. and though two wings is not 1000 a/c, I dont believe we will find evidence of a higher loss rate for Mosquitoes in those operations where they were used in concentrated numbers


Mosquitoes of the two wings attached to the Light strike Bomber Force were attacking Germany in some strength from just after D-Day onward. The raids were undertaken mostly by Mosquitoes in this outfit, and were increasingly sizable....about two wings at maximum. Before that, Mosquito operations were necesarily small scale. All of 2 TAF suffered high levels of attrition during operation Clarion, including the Mossies. I think that was because the RAF tactical air forces were attacking in daylight, and against more heavily defended targets in the north, where flak was diabolical. If we are going to compare apples to apples, thern we need to look at the loss rates per sortie of other tactical bombers employed on similar operations during the day, and in the same area of operations. Not easy material to get a hold of, but worth trying for I think.

But it is not true that Mosquitoes were not attacking in some strength, that all their raids were easy, or against lightly defended targets. Quite the opposite....they tended to get the toughest assignments in fact.

 

[stona]

31 out of 113 days at that time of year may not be so far off the total number of flyable nights. 25% at that time of year? You should see the view from my model room today.

For example 3rd/4th November BC raided Dusseldorf and Cologne in force.
The next 6 nights they carried out minor operations,like the 7 Mosquitos bombing Cologne and Duisberg on the 8/9th. This would suggest the weather had closed in that week,improving on the night of 10/11th when BC attacked Modane "in difficult conditions".
The following night the weather had cleared and Cannes was attacked in "clear" conditions. 617 Sqn had a go at the Antheor viaduct but missed.
There followed another four nights of minor operations mostly carried out by Mosquitos before BC went to Ludwigshaven in marginal conditions,it was an H2S blind bombing raid without target marking. This pattern repeats itself throughout the period.
There is a large difference between a flyable night and one on which a large force of heavy bombers can be assembled and sent off to a distant target. The long nights favoured deeper raids but the RAF never did beat the weather.
Cheers
Steve

 

[fastmongrel]

Theres one big problem with ramping up Mossie production. Materials, its a relatively (if expense is no problem) easy to dig a big hole in the ground and build a smelter to produce more Aluminium but there is a finite source of the right wood needed for the Mossie. The thin wood plies were cut from relatively rare stands of trees, they couldnt just cut any old Birch tree down and expect to get the quality needed.

 

[parsifal]

Some propaganda on the construction of the FB 40s, might give some idea of the construction needed

Go Wood: "The Wooden Wonder" - The de Havilland Mosquito Bomber


Go to the embedded video

I seem to remeber that the Aussie Mosquitoes were delayed by the non-availability of Canadian Birch. If memory serves correctly, I think they eventually found a local alternative.
I think the biggest materials problem would have been finiding an alternative to the Ecuadorian Balso that was used. I dont think any alternative was ever found during the war for that material

 

[tyrodtom]

The Mosquito's plywood was made from Canadian birch, and Ecudorian balsawood.
There may be birch in Britain, but balsawood only grows in a few tropical areas of the world, South America and some in Asia.

 

[stona]

The Mosquito's plywood was made from Canadian birch, and Ecudorian balsawood.
There may be birch in Britain, but balsawood only grows in a few tropical areas of the world, South America and some in Asia.

And I reckon our Canadian friends have got a lot more forestry than we have

Over to Hermann,

"In 1940 I could at least fly as far as Glasgow in most of my aircraft, but not now! It makes me furious when I see the Mosquito. I turn green and yellow with envy. The British, who can afford aluminium better than we can, knock together a beautiful wooden aircraft that every piano factory over there is building, and they give it a speed which they have now increased yet again..."

Steve

 

[fastmongrel]

Fom what I have read the Birch trees needed to be virgin first growth, straight, slow growing and knot free. They also needed to be from a relatively narrow latitude, south they would be too fast growing without the uniformity required. North is conifer country.

We have Birch Tres in Britain but they fulfill none of the above criteria usually being scrubland trees and shrubs. I would say the only two places that had the above mentioned trees in readily available stands would be Canada and the Soviet Union, possibly also Baltic countries and the US.

 

[Shortround6]

You are quite right about the wood supply. Not only do you need the Birch veneer, you need the Balsa wood core and you need the Spruce for structural things like spars.

Anybody who doubts this can trot on down to their local lumber yard and see the difference between "clear" pine and even No 1 pine. "clear" has no knots and that is what is needed for aircraft grade wood, Long straight grain pices with no knotsor other imperfections.

You could probably build a metal equivalent. You just have to decide to do so in 1940/early 41 in order to get a program going big enough to actually replace one or more of the 4 engine planes. Which means selecting an engine and plants to build both.

 

[Aozora]

Hi Aozora,

Appendix 24 in Sharp Bowyer's "Mosquito" has this:

4,000 lb bombs dropped by Mosquitoes, 1943 - 1945:
HC: 776
M2: 7,469
MC: 141
Inc: 8

Looks like more than 8,000 to me...

Yep, and I forgot about these tables in Sharpe and Bowyer:

 

[mhuxt]

I've never read anything to indicate that Mosquito production plans were limited / reduced due to the availability of wood.

 

[parsifal]

I need to get a copy of Sharpe Bowter, I can see......

Whats the title and publisher please

 

[fastmongrel]

I've never read anything to indicate that Mosquito production plans were limited / reduced due to the availability of wood.

People were talking about replacing 4 engine bombers with Mossies. I was pointing out that the wood resources were finite whereas aluminium supply is for all intents and purposes in the 40s limitless. If the US had started churning out Mossies in the numbers talked about then the timber might not have been available.

 

[stona]

One statistic to be drawn from those figures,relevant for anyone planning a strategic bombing campaign, is that a Lancaster dropped nearly six times the tonnage of bombs per sortie that a Mosquito did.
Mind you there are lies,damned lies and statistics!
Steve