WW2 with no Spitfire - Hurricane being primary interceptor

[RCAFson]

In fact Camm was told on 27 February 1941 that "the Hurricane with Griffon is not (considered) worthwhile" - the decision was not dependent on the Typhoon's existence - it was the knowledge that the Grifficane was too limited and required too many modifications for too little improvement.

Odd, Camm's proposal via Stirling is dated 9 March 1941. Perhaps a follow up proposal?

 

[altsym]

While the cooling system of the P-40 was not a refined one as in P-51 or Tempest I, maybe you could post the data that would prove it as a major hurdle for the P-40 to reach better speeds than historically.

I do believe that came right from the mouth of Donovan R. Berlin. Sadly I had the entire article on my old PC which crashed, so I can't prove it. But I'm sure its out there to find somewhere (maybe the book: P-40 walk around Part 2 I believe). Basically it was about the drag, heat vortexes, from the chin rads that reduced speed and stability.

Cheers

 

[Aozora]

You can say this because you've searched the UK archives and you now abandon the use of secondary sources? As I stated we have three sources, two secondary and one primary that suggest at least two different Griffon Hurricane designs.

No, I say this because there is one primary source that can actually be read! Otherwise we have one primary source and two unreferenced secondary sources that provide no information as to where their claims came from, but are acceptable to you because they say what you want them to say.

Odd, Camm's proposal via Stirling is dated 9 March 1941. Perhaps a follow up proposal?

Why should this be odd? There's always the possibility that Camm didn't give up on his Grifficane, even after being told it wasn't worthwhile - we have one or two examples on this website of people who refuse to give up on a fixed idea.

 

[yulzari]

Odd, Camm's proposal via Stirling is dated 9 March 1941. Perhaps a follow up proposal?

It may be too cynical but Camm's Griffon Hurricane proposals appear to come when the awful truth about the Typhoon wing is realised and then when Sabre production engines don't have the quality of Napier built ones.

Typhoon and general advances in aerodynamic understanding would have allowed him to ensure a front radiator was up to the job and the lengthening of the rear fuselage addressed the lack of moment. Keeping the ventral fin would help deal with the greater side area of a front radiator even if it lost the opportunity of returning to a retractable tail wheel. Had he cut down the rear fuselage to allow a Lavochkin style bubble canopy then he would have had to address the fin area shortfall and might have done the whole job properly with a squared off filleted fin and thus be able to return to the retractable tailwheel.

The key to advancing the Hurricane would be thinning the wing though and that would be a bigger job.

 

[wuzak]

It may be too cynical but Camm's Griffon Hurricane proposals appear to come when the awful truth about the Typhoon wing is realised and then when Sabre production engines don't have the quality of Napier built ones.

You mean hand built prototypes?

I'm pretty sure that it was Napiers who built the production ones.

Typhoon and general advances in aerodynamic understanding would have allowed him to ensure a front radiator was up to the job and the lengthening of the rear fuselage addressed the lack of moment. Keeping the ventral fin would help deal with the greater side area of a front radiator even if it lost the opportunity of returning to a retractable tail wheel. Had he cut down the rear fuselage to allow a Lavochkin style bubble canopy then he would have had to address the fin area shortfall and might have done the whole job properly with a squared off filleted fin and thus be able to return to the retractable tailwheel.

The key to advancing the Hurricane would be thinning the wing though and that would be a bigger job.

Sounds like Camm may as well started from scratch.

 

[RCAFson]

No, I say this because there is one primary source that can actually be read! Otherwise we have one primary source and two unreferenced secondary sources that provide no information as to where their claims came from, but are acceptable to you because they say what you want them to say.



.

Mason, in Hawker Hurricane, P.195, also states that there were several Griffon Hurricane schemes.

 

[wuzak]

On another tack, what would the lack of a Spitfire be on British morale?

Would the Hurricane capture the imagination of the British populace as much as the Spitfire did? Could it be as much of a source of pride, hope or inspiration as the Spitfire?

I tend to think not.

 

[Shortround6]

Mason, in Hawker Hurricane, P.195, also states that there were several Griffon Hurricane schemes.

Lots of designers had schemes, workable ones were another matter.

Original XP-59

Original XP-69

And these had mock-ups and wind tunnel models made, not just sketches.

some sketches from initial work on the P-38