swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 4,067
- Jun 25, 2013
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I believe the M-16 rifle was one of the few modern weapons to be built in multiple factories (although the M-14 was also),
strange as politics and government contracts are the Government (army) wanted more than one source during the vietnam war, which is understandable.
However Colt had to turn over not only blueprints of the rifle but information on tools, jigs, manufacturing procedures/techniques and so on. The two other companies that built the M-16 at the time (everybody with lathe in the garage seems to be building them now) both charged more per rifle than Colt. One company charged almost double what Colt was getting per rifle in contract at the same time.
The strange part (and politics) comes in when at least one senator wanted to investigate Colt for excessive profits but not the other companies.
What's weird about it? The weird thing is aircraft companies building their competitors designs. Nobody wants to devote precious production capacity to build their competitors airplane instead of their own. That's the quick way to "also ran" status in the highly competitive aircraft industry.It is weird that you don't have many contractors building one plane though... that seemed to have ended at some point in the 1950's...
It's funny how the Army & Navy have a legendary rivalry, but they'll team together gladly to stick it to the Air Force...In this case, no. I think the Army was using it more as a threat during contract negotiations.
Interesting...During the F-18 production, I believe in the Reagan Administration, somehow, Pratt & Whitney got the DoD to open them up as a second source.
I usually assume it's lobbyists -- follow the money right? However, it's hard to tell honestly...I don't know why this was decided, but I'm 99% sure that lobbying was involved, although I don't know if it was lobbying congress or lobbying the executive branch.
So it was a matter of need and redundancy, and the US Army thought differently than the USAF?I believe the M-16 rifle was one of the few modern weapons to be built in multiple factories (although the M-14 was also), strange as politics and government contracts are the Government (army) wanted more than one source during the vietnam war, which is understandable.
Was this the intellectual property issue Lockheed managed to raise a whole stink on?However Colt had to turn over not only blueprints of the rifle but information on tools, jigs, manufacturing procedures/techniques and so on.
It was a common practice that continued for some time, then *pfft* disapeared.What's weird about it?
Of course, but I'd figure it would homogenize the knowledge base: Effectively, everybody is kept knowledgeable.The weird thing is aircraft companies building their competitors designs. Nobody wants to devote precious production capacity to build their competitors airplane instead of their own.
It was never a natural or comfortable practice in an industry that had traditionally been cutthroat competitive. It was imposed by the government due to the national emergency of the war. Yes it did "homogenize the knowledge base", but that was of benefit only to the government, as aircraft companies viewed the "knowledge base" as proprietary property. New information that companies were given to enable them to manufacture their competitors plane was usable only for that purpose. They were not allowed to use it in their own designs.It was a common practice that continued for some time, then *pfft* disapeared.
Of course, but I'd figure it would homogenize the knowledge base: Effectively, everybody is kept knowledgeable.
Of course, but they were supposed to serve their country in time of war...It was never a natural or comfortable practice in an industry that had traditionally been cutthroat competitive.
True enough, ironically the requirements might very well have provided a balancing force. It's dangerous if either government (USSR from 1917-1991) or business (Italy from 1919 to 1943, Germany from 1933 to 1945) get too powerful.It was imposed by the government due to the national emergency of the war. Yes it did "homogenize the knowledge base", but that was of benefit only to the government, as aircraft companies viewed the "knowledge base" as proprietary property.
You're telling me that defense contractors *never* used this knowledge for their own projects officially/unofficially?New information that companies were given to enable them to manufacture their competitors plane was usable only for that purpose. They were not allowed to use it in their own designs.
Did you ever hear of a prohibition such as this being embraced and scrupulously adhered to? Of course not!. It has to be enforced just like enforcement of the original Prohibition (of alcohol) and with about the same lack of success. Do you wonder that companies hated being forced to share their hard-won techniques and technical data with their competitors? They had to expend a lot of effort in defending their intellectual property. As they saw it, their fiduciary responsibility to their stockholders was closer to their hearts than any extrapolated patriotic impulses.You're telling me that defense contractors *never* used this knowledge for their own projects officially/unofficially?
Considering the high-handed way the infant Air Force treated the senior services, are you surprised? No sooner had they achieved Independence, than they started lobbying Congress to abolish the other two services as obsolete and make their remnants subsidiaries of the almighty USAF. Are you surprised the other two services had it in for the Air Force? The Air Force tried to take over Naval and Army aviation similar to the prewar RAF model. And they almost succeeded.It's funny how the Army & Navy have a legendary rivalry, but they'll team together gladly to stick it to the Air Force...
What's weird about it? The weird thing is aircraft companies building their competitors designs. Nobody wants to devote precious production capacity to build their competitors airplane instead of their own. That's the quick way to "also ran" status in the highly competitive aircraft industry.
Thought so...Did you ever hear of a prohibition such as this being embraced and scrupulously adhered to? Of course not!
And the only way it'd ever work is if the odds of being caught were almost 100% and the penalties were fairly stiff.It has to be enforced
No, not at all: They did a lot of work to develop it.Do you wonder that companies hated being forced to share their hard-won techniques and technical data with their competitors?
Well, I figure most CEO's see it as a matter of benefiting themselves first, then stockholders, and if there's any time left, that whole patriotic thing (yeah, I know -- that's kind of cynical, but I should point out that many corporations during WWII did, indeed, knowingly and deliberately, engage in trade with the enemy).As they saw it, their fiduciary responsibility to their stockholders was closer to their hearts than any extrapolated patriotic impulses.
That's not too far off (and frankly, an excellent summary).Considering the high-handed way the infant Air Force treated the senior services, are you surprised? No sooner had they achieved Independence, than they started lobbying Congress to abolish the other two services as obsolete and make their remnants subsidiaries of the almighty USAF.
Actually, the RAF at least let the Navy keep their carriers: The USAF wanted to sink every last one (as well as much of the surface fleet).The Air Force tried to take over Naval and Army aviation similar to the prewar RAF model. And they almost succeeded.
Even if the design doesn't live upOn the other hand, it's guaranteed profits* (virtually all contracts with the US government are; this is a major reason why Lockheed-Martin, Northrop-Grumman, and General Dynamics have essentially no non-government business). Pre-WWII, a company could win a design contract and lose the production contract which was, of course, a much larger prize.
Okay...You need to expand on your claim that many corporations knowingly and deliberately engage with trade with the enemy.
Who needs carriers and a surface fleet when you can have Peacemakers, Stratojets, and THE BOMB instead? It's a no-brainer, right? With "giv'em hell Harry" carrying "the football" and Curt Lemay managing the team, we can keep the entire world too terrified to give us a hard time anywhere any time.Actually, the RAF at least let the Navy keep their carriers: The USAF wanted to sink every last one (as well as much of the surface fleet).
My dad (4F, unfit for combat) worked as a DCAS (Defense Contract Assurance Service) inspector at Bell in Niagara, NY during the changeover from P39 to P63 production. Part of his job was monitoring the inclusion of technologies that were Intellectual Property of other companies in Bell products. This was a job that needed an engineer, not an English teacher, but engineers were not to be had for what the government would pay, especially since the job didn't come with a draft deferment. He wound up mostly just patrolling for deliberate wastage to up the cost of production (cost-plus contract). He said some of the Soviet liason officers (decorated combat pilots to a man) were mighty colorful characters. They would randomly pick a new plane out of production flight test and go out terrorizing the countryside. (Especially Curtiss production test at nearby Buffalo International!) Naturally they would choose one that didn't have red stars on it yet.And the only way it'd ever work is if the odds of being caught were almost
Firstly, nuclear bombs are a weapon only to be used in total war. Wars have various sizes from minor conflicts to world-scale conflicts.Who needs carriers and a surface fleet when you can have Peacemakers, Stratojets, and THE BOMB instead?
Keeping the world terrified of you motivates them to figure out how to counter the threat you pose; this in turn requires you to develop ever more advanced and destructive weapons to carry out the threat, as well as defend against enemy developments.It's a no-brainer, right? With "giv'em hell Harry" carrying "the football" and Curt Lemay managing the team, we can keep the entire world too terrified to give us a hard time anywhere any time.
Manifest Destiny was the belief that it was God's will for America to expand all the way to the Pacific Ocean. This would be expanding the position to conquer the world. Manifest Destiny as it was wasn't well liked by Native Americans and Mexicans, and inserting our noses into the affairs of other nations has created all sorts of problems that are plaguing us to this day.Isn't that our manifest destiny?
They could cut off financial aidShortround6 said:OK, and how, pray tell, was IBM in America going to stop Dehomag in Germany from cooperating with the German government/nazis?
The same rule appliesSame with Ford. Same with Fanta.
Well, that's their choice if they wish to reconsider: Under threat of death, I wouldn't necessarily hold it against them if they did; I would hold it against a corporation who continued to supply aid.Ford of Germany tells the German government "no we won't build any more trucks for you" German official sends 5-10 top managers to concentration camp and asks the remaining managers if they want to to reconsider.
Their whole country is under direct occupation -- they are in a situation where they are forced to comply or risk death. We weren't occupied, and could have cut aid.Many French companies made parts/equipment for the Germans after being occupied, does that mean they " knowingly and deliberately engage with trade with the enemy." in a negative sense?
That's a good pointInteresting as it might be, what has any of this to do with XP-65 / F7F Development?