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Denniss said:
You're right. Our politicians in Europe fell back into some kind of appeasement policy vs Putin. Did not work just like it failed pre-WW2 with Hitler.
This kind of policy never works vs dictators, they'll always outplay you and results in a way bigger boom than if you had stood up to them earlier.
Click to expand...
You don't negotiate with someone who is trying to kill (or subjugate) you.

The hardest part is the recognition of that.

Look at Israel, I think they recognize and understand that all to well.
 
BiffF15 said:
Okay, I will play the role of the contrarian.

Here is a quote from the NATO website:

The combined wealth of the non-US Allies, measured in GDP, is almost equal to that of the United States. However, non-US Allies together spend less than half of what the United States spends on defence. This imbalance has been a constant, with variations, throughout the history of the Alliance and has grown more pronounced since the tragic events of 11 September 2001, after which the United States significantly increased its defence spending. The volume of US defence expenditure represents approximately two thirds of the defence spending of the Alliance as a whole. However, this is not the amount that the United States contributes to the operational running of NATO, which is shared with all Allies according to the principle of common funding. Moreover, US defence spending also covers commitments outside the Euro-Atlantic area. It should be noted, nonetheless, that the Alliance relies on the United States for the provision of some essential capabilities, regarding for instance, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance; air-to-air refuelling; ballistic missile defence; and airborne electromagnetic warfare.

Do the countries that are contributing higher than normal amounts have commitments all over the planet?

Do any of these countries contribute aid anywhere else on the planet?

Our "population" is up an estimated 12 million from illegals, of which untold amounts of funding is going to them. Is anyone giving us money for that? Crime is up huge, as is drug trafficking across our southern border. Anyone "helping us with that?

This has no political party attached to it, just stating what's going on (not why).

I'm a retired military veteran. The VA healthcare rarely gets positive reviews for a reason. When do we get our house in order?

I'm just asking what I think are the obvious questions since the undercurrent seems to always be the US needs to do more.

Personally I think we should help out the UKRs, but would like oversight of where that money is going.

Cheers,
Biff
Click to expand...

Biff,

You make some really good points but I'll offer some counter-contrarian thoughts just to add to the mix.

While, holistically, the European nations may have a similar GDP to that of the US, it's not directly comparable. Each nation is responsible for its own defence, which inevitably results in fracturing of overall buying power. The nearest equivalent I can come up with would be to imaging the US without its regular armed forces but reliant on the National Guard to provide its overall defence (admittedly, it's not a great analogy...but it's the best I can come up with). No European nation is going to cede critical defence capabilities to another nation for the simple reason that the other nation may not show up when needed. Imagine if, for example, Europe decided that all AAR would be funded and operated by Germany. If Germany doesn't want to participate in, for example, the UK's commitments, then the UK won't have AAR.

As to oversight of the funding that the US is providing, I'd really like to see clearer explanation of what those dollars actually mean. Some of it is being provided as international aid but the defence aid is in the form of munitions that are manufactured in the US. Thus those dollars that are being "given to Ukraine" are actually funding jobs in the US. I think it's pretty straightforward to ask where US humanitarian aid is going. It's far more challenging to expect Ukraine to account for every bullet and shell that the US provides...particularly when there are vocal elements in US leadership who don't want to continue providing military aid to Kyiv.

I do think that the European nations still need to increase their defence funding. For example, the UK's defence spending, as a percentage of GDP, during the Cold War was still double what it is today. Get defence spending above 4% and Europe would be in a much stronger position...but that's politically unpalatable in many countries. Ironically, the reason it's so unpalatable is largely for similar reasons to the points you make about immigration, crime and healthcare; European voters want their tax Euros/Pounds spent to solve those latter issues rather than on defence because those internal factors have greater visibility with the average Joe/Josef/Jose.
 
Image 21-4-2024 at 4.01 am.jpeg

Image 21-4-2024 at 4.09 am.jpeg
 
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KYIV, April 20 (Reuters) - Ukraine attacked eight Russian regions with dozens of long-range strike drones, setting ablaze a fuel depot and hitting three power substations in a major attack early on Saturday, an intelligence source in Kyiv told Reuters.

The overnight attack, which was confirmed by the defence ministry in Moscow, comes amid a Russian airstrike campaign that has battered Ukraine's energy system and pounded its cities in recent weeks.

Facing mounting pressure on the battlefield more than two years since Russia's full-scale invasion, Ukraine has tried to find a pressure point against the Kremlin by targeting oil refineries and energy facilities inside Russia using drones.

"At least three electrical substations and a fuel storage base were hit, where fires ignited," the Ukrainian source said, citing social media videos showing fires raging at different locations.

The source said the facilities were targeted for supporting Russian military industrial production.

Russia's defence ministry said it shot down 50 Ukrainian drones, including 26 in the Belgorod region, 10 in the Bryansk region, eight in Kursk region, two in Tula region as well as one in each of the regions of Smolensk, Ryazan, Kaluga and Moscow.

Vyacheslav Gladkov, the governor of Russia's Belgorod region which borders Ukraine, said two civilians were killed as a result of the attack.

The strike targeted a fuel energy facility in the western Smolensk region's Kardym district, hitting a reservoir with fuel and oil lubricants, the local governor confirmed.

"As a result of the work of air defence forces, the aircraft were shot down. However, as a result of falling debris, a tank with fuel and oil lubricants caught fire," he said, adding that firefighters were battling to put out the blaze.


"We took out the drones by using our POL reservoirs." -- Dmitri Peskov
 
Denniss said:
You're right. Our politicians in Europe fell back into some kind of appeasement policy vs Putin. Did not work just like it failed pre-WW2 with Hitler.
This kind of policy never works vs dictators, they'll always outplay you and results in a way bigger boom than if you had stood up to them earlier.
Click to expand...
Not just in Europe. We've seen here in the US plenty of wishful thinking that if we just be nice to people that have sworn to destroy us, we can win them over.
 
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