Not to say that the Fulmar wasn't slow in the climb, but using the combat rating of the Merlin VIII, the climb rate would increase by a 1/3 or more.
10 January 1941 - the attack on HMS Illustrious
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Not to say that the Fulmar wasn't slow in the climb, but using the combat rating of the Merlin VIII, the climb rate would increase by a 1/3 or more.
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- #22
parsifal
Colonel
I assme you are referring to the improvements that were achieved with the Fulamr II. If so, certainly. Unfortunately, however on this day, it was the Fukmar I doing the fighting. W2hatever the performance arcs of the type, the initial engagement would find both the standing and emergency CAP low in altitude, and unable reach engagement height in time. The standing CAP was also miles out of position, having taken the bait and chased the SM79s to the extent that they were completely off station.
I have a couple of questions however, with regard to the air battle. Most histories talk about how the CAP staged back to Malta, to refuel and then continue their cover mission over the stricken carrier. The next entry I have for the Fulmar CAG was as part of the Malta defences on the 16th. By that stage there were just 3 left, out of the original 9. What happened to the remaining 6. I would hazard a guess and suggest that the 3 a/c of the standing CAP on the 10th january, did not have the fuel to make it back to Malta, and ditched as a result. There may also have been some unservicieable airframes on the 16th not included in the available CAP. Or were there other losses. If so, what were the causes of those losses. interested to hear your opinion.
I have a couple of questions however, with regard to the air battle. Most histories talk about how the CAP staged back to Malta, to refuel and then continue their cover mission over the stricken carrier. The next entry I have for the Fulmar CAG was as part of the Malta defences on the 16th. By that stage there were just 3 left, out of the original 9. What happened to the remaining 6. I would hazard a guess and suggest that the 3 a/c of the standing CAP on the 10th january, did not have the fuel to make it back to Malta, and ditched as a result. There may also have been some unservicieable airframes on the 16th not included in the available CAP. Or were there other losses. If so, what were the causes of those losses. interested to hear your opinion.
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- #23
parsifal
Colonel
I did find this analysis
"It is somewhat frustrating the way different authors and different reports give varying accounts as to the number of aircraft... but I guess it is an effect of the "fog of war" and the danger of simplifying different definitions.
I've read that Illustrious departed Alexandria with 15 Fulmars.
Elsewhere, it is reported that Illustrious had 12 "operational" Fulmars on January 9, 1941.
This discrepancy could be accounted for through:
- Operational attrition (damage/loss in the days before January 9)
- Aircraft lists state the Illustrious had 12 Fulmars and three Sea Gladiators in the months before Operation Excess. But I have found no mention of the Sea Gladiator (other than those on Malta) in accounts of this event.
The number of machines in the air as CAP at the time of the torpedo-bomber diversion is also very vague. Numbers given vary between four and five.
The number of fighters on the deck as replacement cap also vary. Was it four or five? Was it five, with only four getting airborne? Or was it four, with only three getting airborne (given reports of one experiencing engine failure before takeoff).
We are told that one Fulmar was shot down during the attack.
We are also told that five Fulmars made their way to Malta after Illustrious became inoperable.
This would suggest a total of only six ever getting airborne...
Some accounts say 11 Swordfish and five Fulmars were destroyed in the hangar. Others say nine Swordfish and four Fulmars.
I guess the discrepancy can be whether or not unserviceable aircraft are counted... but it is difficult to come up with a permutation of the reported Fulmar numbers that add up to the totals of 15 or 12.
My best accounting is:
- Three operational Fulmars on CAP
- Three operational Fulmars launched
- One operational Fulmar on the aft lift (maybe being deployed to replace the machine with reported engine failure)
- Five operational Fulmars in hangar (one of which may have become unserviceable during the CAP launch)
* I did read one report somewhere (I really should probably start taking proper referenced notes) that the Fulmar that experienced engine failure was destroyed while on the forward lift.
Why does it bother me?
I'm trying to get a feel for the effectiveness of the limited CAP and interception the British carriers offered in the Mediterranean.
It seems to me that the very few aircraft that were available to intercept (often only three or four) were able to significantly disrupt large attacking forces.
But to get a better feel for this, I need more accurate figures on aircraft numbers and types".
This guys account aligns exactly with my thoughts...
"It is somewhat frustrating the way different authors and different reports give varying accounts as to the number of aircraft... but I guess it is an effect of the "fog of war" and the danger of simplifying different definitions.
I've read that Illustrious departed Alexandria with 15 Fulmars.
Elsewhere, it is reported that Illustrious had 12 "operational" Fulmars on January 9, 1941.
This discrepancy could be accounted for through:
- Operational attrition (damage/loss in the days before January 9)
- Aircraft lists state the Illustrious had 12 Fulmars and three Sea Gladiators in the months before Operation Excess. But I have found no mention of the Sea Gladiator (other than those on Malta) in accounts of this event.
The number of machines in the air as CAP at the time of the torpedo-bomber diversion is also very vague. Numbers given vary between four and five.
The number of fighters on the deck as replacement cap also vary. Was it four or five? Was it five, with only four getting airborne? Or was it four, with only three getting airborne (given reports of one experiencing engine failure before takeoff).
We are told that one Fulmar was shot down during the attack.
We are also told that five Fulmars made their way to Malta after Illustrious became inoperable.
This would suggest a total of only six ever getting airborne...
Some accounts say 11 Swordfish and five Fulmars were destroyed in the hangar. Others say nine Swordfish and four Fulmars.
I guess the discrepancy can be whether or not unserviceable aircraft are counted... but it is difficult to come up with a permutation of the reported Fulmar numbers that add up to the totals of 15 or 12.
My best accounting is:
- Three operational Fulmars on CAP
- Three operational Fulmars launched
- One operational Fulmar on the aft lift (maybe being deployed to replace the machine with reported engine failure)
- Five operational Fulmars in hangar (one of which may have become unserviceable during the CAP launch)
* I did read one report somewhere (I really should probably start taking proper referenced notes) that the Fulmar that experienced engine failure was destroyed while on the forward lift.
Why does it bother me?
I'm trying to get a feel for the effectiveness of the limited CAP and interception the British carriers offered in the Mediterranean.
It seems to me that the very few aircraft that were available to intercept (often only three or four) were able to significantly disrupt large attacking forces.
But to get a better feel for this, I need more accurate figures on aircraft numbers and types".
This guys account aligns exactly with my thoughts...
Fulmar I/Merlin VIII had a climb rating of 2850rpm/6.25lb and a combat rating of 3000rpm 6.25lb - 9.75lb which would result in a 10-20% boost in power depending on the altitude.
I'll try and do some research on the other questions.
vinnye
Senior Airman
I have just found some more info on Illustious included recollections of men who served during the Taranto raid and also when the attacks occured around / in Malta.
HMS Illustrious (CV-7) Aircraft Carrier of World War Two
HMS Illustrious (CV-7) Aircraft Carrier of World War Two
fastmongrel
1st Sergeant
Interesting eye witness account of the raids on Grand Harbour with some small but interesting photos.
Anniversary of Attack on HMS Illustrious | TVM News
Anniversary of Attack on HMS Illustrious | TVM News
Attachments
fastmongrel
1st Sergeant
Another photo with spray obscuring Illustrious and the crane over the flight deck. I have put an arrow so you can see that was a near miss.
Illustrious3 by fastmongrel, on Flickr
Illustrious3 by fastmongrel, on Flickr
- Thread starter
- #28
parsifal
Colonel
That was just sheer luck that the LW did not hit them again
fastmongrel
1st Sergeant
Shows how hard it is to hit a ship as big as a carrier (even when its not moving) when its surrounded by 100 AA guns. Must have been like diving into hell for the pilots.
According to "Hurricanes over Malta" 6 Fulmars made it to Malta. I'll try to get more from other sources.
istonehouse
Recruit
I was very interested to read this thread, and the various posts, since one of my cousins - (A) Sub-Lieut. Henry 'Harry' Norman Loudon (RN) of 806 Squadron - was killed on board HMS Illustrious on January 10th 1941. He was only 20 years of age.
I include an undated family photo of him below.
If anyone can point me in the direction of any further information regarding military service records for Fleet Air Arm pilots, or other information about 806 Squadron and the events of January 10th 1941, I would be most grateful.
I include an undated family photo of him below.
If anyone can point me in the direction of any further information regarding military service records for Fleet Air Arm pilots, or other information about 806 Squadron and the events of January 10th 1941, I would be most grateful.
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The wikipedia page is quite detailed and has links to more info as well:
806 Naval Air Squadron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
806 Naval Air Squadron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
- Thread starter
- #33
parsifal
Colonel
Boy, does that bring the human side of the war home or what.
