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"Merlin XII was aboard, not the XX. Unfortunately, if I may add."
I think you just answered your own question.
If the Merlin XII isn't good enough at 1175hp for take-off and 1140hp at 14,750ft (at 9lbs boost) in the low drag (for the time) Spitfire carrying 440lbs(200kf) of guns and ammo, then what kind of engine or airplane do you need?
Merlin XII was enough for two things - it was able to propel Spitfire II to the speeds as good as what lighter Mk.I achieved. It was only 10 HP weaker for T.O than Merlin 45, and a Spitfire with M.45 was able to take off with almost 200 imp gals (=1420 lbs) of additional fuel, plus additional engine oil, minus 3/4s of weaponry (350 lbs?).
However, Merlin XII comes short, compared to Merlin XX and 45, with the power at all altitudes - eg. what M.XII was been able to do at 15000 ft, the M.XX and 45 were able to do at 18500 ft. That was worth ~15 mph at 20000 ft, ~20 mph at 25000 ft. RoC above 15000 was also better for the M.45 engined Spit, by some 20%. The take off power is also down some 100 HP - that might prevent a Spitfire, at ferry weight, to take off from a carrier? The power between SL and 10000 FT is also smaller, provided same boost levels are used.
Having a plane that is fast isn't the answer. It has to be able to fight even if not tight dog fight in the traditional sense. The Bf 110 was faster than the Hurricane I and that didn't work out so well.
Disagreed with these two claims. A faster Spitfire was a better Spitfire, despite weight growth. Merlin XX would've enabled it also to climb better, above 15000 ft. Nobody in ww2 clamored 'give me slower aircraft', either.
The BF-110 was faster than Hurricane, but it was slower than Spitfire. The close escort tactics and low numbers of deployed aircraft didn't help either. P-38, F4U and F6F were faster than all Japanese pre-1945 aircraft, right tactics and good numbers helped too, and nobody asked their P-40s and F4Fs back instead.
The MB.2 is a dead end. The Defiant is a dead end. ANY existing fighter with under 1200hp is a dead end. And a new design has to give up what? protection? Armament?
Depends what one does with MB-2. Retract the U/C and install back-facing exhausts and it's as fast/faster than Hurricane I. Stick a Merlin on it and it's fast as Spitfire? The fuel tankage is low, however, despite ample distance between pilot and engine.
The really new fighter might start with, say, a Merlin XX, 120 imp gals of fuel, with leading-edge radiators and better choice of high-lift devices. I won't say 'Mustang with two-speed Merlin' yet.
For an escort fighter the British needed plane that could fight the 109 on near equal terms and do it about 300 miles from it's bases just to hit the Ruhr. Depending on route home (Essen to Burge=165miles, Cologne to Dunkirk is 200miles) a considerable period of time/distance is spent in enemy controlled air-space which means cruise speed must be kept high.
The Spit with M.XX was feasible in 1940; it would trump any 109E, and be equal to 109F-1/F-2.
For the Germans it is 114 miles from London to Derby (add to radius) and 178 miles from London to Liverpool, forget Northern Ireland. 258 miles from Arras to Derby. SO the Germans have the same problem. The need to be able to beat the Hurricane and come close to the Spitfire but do it at a radius 100-175 miles further than they were doing it. It is 67 miles from London to Dover.
These distances just get you out of AA range, pursuing fighters are another matter.
All fine. A tidbit: pursuing fighter need range, too, to really pursue a retreating fighter.
Merlin XII was enough for two things -.................. The take off power is also down some 100 HP - that might prevent a Spitfire, at ferry weight, to take off from a carrier? The power between SL and 10000 FT is also smaller, provided same boost levels are used.
Disagreed with these two claims. A faster Spitfire was a better Spitfire, despite weight growth. Merlin XX would've enabled it also to climb better, above 15000 ft. Nobody in ww2 clamored 'give me slower aircraft', either.
Depends what one does with MB-2. Retract the U/C and install back-facing exhausts and it's as fast/faster than Hurricane I. Stick a Merlin on it and it's fast as Spitfire? The fuel tankage is low, however, despite ample distance between pilot and engine.
The really new fighter might start with, say, a Merlin XX, 120 imp gals of fuel, with leading-edge radiators and better choice of high-lift devices.
The Spit with M.XX was feasible in 1940; it would trump any 109E, and be equal to 109F-1/F-2.
All fine. A tidbit: pursuing fighter need range, too, to really pursue a retreating fighter.
The short range interceptors can attack in relays too.
Your original question was for a 1100-1200hp engine. The Merlin XX is a 1200-1300hp engine to start with and becomes a nearly 1500hp engine when 14-16lbs or boost are allowed.
It is not a claim, some people have been fixed on the slight loss in speed (which might be acceptable) due to the extra weight without considering the loss of other performance. It is the loss of climb performance, and by extension, the loss of turning ability that is the real problem. The 110 was faster than the Hurricane but not only couldn't it out turn it ( more of a defensive move) but it could not out climb it, which means the Hurricane may be able to evade by climbing and turning instead of diving and turning. Once the Hurricane has a height advantage it can dive and turn the height advantage into a speed advantage.
This obsession with taking obsolete and/or not too good aircraft and trying to turn them into war winners is fun but not practical.
The Martin Baker prototype was about 340lbs lighter than the Spitfire prototype. But then it didn't have about 300lbs worth of liquid cooling system either. By the time you stick a Merlin in it, fit it with armor, self sealing tanks, a constant speed prop, retracting landing gear, etc it will go faster and climb better than the prototype but it will be just as heavy as the Spitfire. It smaller wing means higher wing loading.
well, starting with a 1300-1400hp engine does give you advantages that an 1100-1200hp engine doesn't have
It was feasible in late summer of 1940 to start production and issue. In service squadrons avaialbe in the fall of 1940 and numbers enough to really do anything in the winter?
And unless you can pry a few hundred engines out of Bomber Commands tight little fists it means NO Hurricane IIs which means your super Spits will really bear the brunt of the work.
German fighter unit returning from Derby gets bounced by Spitfire squadron based south east of London? German unit has already dropped tanks and fought one fight 150 miles further back. Now it is facing another fight and another 100-150 miles to home.
Or flip it. MR Spits dropped tanks and fought over Dusseldorf and get bounced (engaged) by fresh German Squadron over/near Rotterdam (110-115miles) . It is another 136 miles to Harwich and the English coast.
That is the problem with escort fighters in Europe. They are not facing ONE fight but the possibility of several fights on the way back.
The short range interceptors can attack in relays too.
It would always be ideal to intercept bombers before they bombed, as Douglas conceded, but this was not practically possible. Official figures are hard to find, but reference to memoirs and individual pilot's log books would indicate that roughly 6 out of 10 sector controlled interceptions were successful.
All Douglas wanted to do was shoot down as many bombers as possible, whenever that was possible, which seems eminently sensible to me.
Park's sensible plan to engage primarily bombers and not tangle with escorts (with either Spitfires or Hurricanes) was of course at the mercy of German tactics. One of the inadvertent effects of the Luftwaffe's change in tactics around 24th August was that it became virtually impossible to avoid the escort fighters, even though they were now flying in a less advantageous state.
Air Publication 1530B - September 1939 (Revised October 1939)
Pilot's Notes
The Blenheim IV Aeroplane
Two Mercury XV Engines
View attachment 246699
Dowding had a lot on his plate, and I'm sure he wasn't aware of every single wheeling and dealing in the RAF/RAE/A&AEE/etc.
Do you have evidence for this?
Some great documents from wwiiaircraftperformance.org
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/AASF-Fuel.pdf
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/hurricane/RAF-Component-15may40.pdf
So the idea of 'letting them though' and then hammering them on the way out .....'
Blenheim IVs of Bomber Command were using 100 Octane fuel from the start of the war, albeit using the outer wing fuel tanks:
That doesn't surprise me!
It is clear that stocks of 100 octane fuel were adequate and substantial throughout 1940. It is also clear that most if not all squadrons within Fighter Command were operating with the fuel throughout 1940. There are dozens of extant documents in the National Archives to support this. Nonetheless, for some reason, probably based on a misinterpretation of an earlier document, this has been contentious over the years.
Cheers
Steve
But, but there was only 16 squadrons of fighters using 100 octane fuel during the BoB.That is according to some so called aviation experts.
Milosh, go and wash your mouth out with soap and water
Steve, you mean people like Crumpp and Kurfurst.